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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 14, 2017 23:45:05 GMT
Now, beyond all that I just said, I did suggest in the ideas thread that this forum have a venting section both so that negative complaint threads can be directed there, and also so that people who want to avoid such topics know they can just avoid that area. Isnt that very dismissive of other opinions? Likevare negativebopinions not real opinions? Also it would just make the negative posts even more toxic then before
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2017 23:57:50 GMT
Now, beyond all that I just said, I did suggest in the ideas thread that this forum have a venting section both so that negative complaint threads can be directed there, and also so that people who want to avoid such topics know they can just avoid that area. Isnt that very dismissive of other opinions? Likevare negativebopinions not real opinions? Also it would just make the negative posts even more toxic then before No, it's just a matter of keeping venting, which is not constructive in an environment where the business can't see it anyways, separate from discussion of tactics and strategy, without specifically disallowing it. People should be allowed to vent, but all threads shouldn't devolve into venting. There should be some incentive there to keep things separated.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 15, 2017 0:23:24 GMT
On the one hand, I think a forum section for concentrated rage would be fun. On the other hand, new players must not be allowed in. Their precious little hearts couldn't take that much fiery salt.
I'd totally be down for a venting section. Just, let's not banish players to there whenever they get a little riled in other discussion. It would probably be wise to keep arguing in the venting section to a minimum imo. If it has open season on rants AND debates it could get real toxic real quick. And I'm not one to use the word toxic lightly.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 15, 2017 0:29:48 GMT
Realistically it could be fine. If people have a low tolerance for toxicity, that's probably not a good place for them anyways.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 15, 2017 1:25:23 GMT
Lanz, the idea that "We didn't ask for mk 3 so I can use as my hyperbole as I want to say that PPs product is terrible" is a bad argument. You are not functionally forced to play mk 3. If the experience of playing mk 3 was so very terrible then I would imagine it wouldn't be played as much as mk 2 would be, cons would be run with filled up 'mk 2 retro tournaments' and the badmouthing of mk 3 wouldn't be contained to a minority of loud players that I could generally name without having to check.
Mk 3 is an excellent game and it is only slated to get better. Calm the math down.
@everyone, I'm sorry that I flew off the handle before but I hate 2 things out of these discussions: 1. People who don't play anymore but spend a disproportionate amount of time complaining about balance in a game they don't play.
2. People who play a game regularly but refuse to see its positives and only focus on the negatives.
If you don't play a game you simply cannot complement on its balance. Internal balance is better than it was in mk 2 for most cases and external balance is unquestionably better.
If you badmouth something you play often, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Post by strobe on Mar 15, 2017 1:50:24 GMT
I'm having fun in MkIII. Just last Saturday I exploded a bunch of Iron Fangs with a Corruptor. I'm one of those people who never played too competitively. I mean, I always played to win in a game, I just didn't spend lots of time optimising lists and going to tournaments. I'm saying this so you can perhaps see the perspective my comments come from.
I really like that the large (stupidly large?) amount of Cryx infantry I own isn't really good to take in one game. I enjoy taking more stompy robots in to battle. It feels more like the cover of the books than MkII did for me.
People are always going to complain and, in my opinion, the people who are near but not quite at the top of the competitive scene are often the loudest with their complaints. I'm part of that (mostly) silent group who just play in a fairly laid back way and I really like how MkIII is going.
However... the handling of the release left something to be desired. When the MkII to MkIII transition happened I was working for a major distributor/retailer of Wargaming products in the country I live in. PP were not helpful to us at all. About a month before the MkIII announcement we placed a really large order including battleboxes and books. At the time we _specifically_ asked our sales rep if MkIII was coming and they said "Nope, don't worry about it.". Then MkIII got announced. We didn't even have the order we had placed yet as shipping to this end of the world takes a fair amount of time. When confronted about it and asked if they would do anything to help us out PP didn't come to the party. It was quite a low blow. Contrast this to Corvus Belli (Infinity) or Hawk Wargames (Dropzone/fleet Commander) who simply replaced books free of charge to the distributors when there was an edition change... yeah, pretty different.
From a personal perspective as a player, the small WarRoom discount for those who had the everything deal in MkII and then the change to free cards after buying card decks really felt similar to how PP dealt with the distributor I worked for. Whilst I like the rules getting tightened up from a balance perspective it seems like PP don't really know how they are approaching it. It's getting good now with the CID looking hopeful but I've lost a lot of faith with the company.
So, whilst I agree with some of the OP title (the problem is not the rules) I'm not convinced the section part is true. The players have been treated poorly and the backlash is understandable. I'm shocked about the forum changes and the Pressgang shut down and frankly I have been putting more time in to other hobbies, including other wargames, for the past little while.
I still play Warmachine and Hordes often and my wife and I will continue to run our local club but I'm not sure how long we'll last. There doesn't seem to be the support there was in the past for the game either from Privateer Press or from the players themselves. I sincerely hope that it blows over and play picks up as I quite like the game.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 15, 2017 1:51:53 GMT
The funny thing is octavius i like mk3 more then mk2 by a wide margin.
I justhate being told what to do as if i hate for the sake of hate.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 15, 2017 2:00:41 GMT
The funny thing is octavius i like mk3 more then mk2 by a wide margin. I justhate being told what to do as if i hate for the sake of hate. I see a lot of people on forums who hate for the sake of hate. Their bones to pick are often extremely trivial or a symptom of something they refuse to understand. I don't want to accuse you of doing that, I'm just saying that it exists.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 15, 2017 2:03:29 GMT
Lanz, the idea that "We didn't ask for mk 3 so I can use as my hyperbole as I want to say that PPs product is terrible" is a bad argument. You are not functionally forced to play mk 3. If the experience of playing mk 3 was so very terrible then I would imagine it wouldn't be played as much as mk 2 would be, cons would be run with filled up 'mk 2 retro tournaments' and the badmouthing of mk 3 wouldn't be contained to a minority of loud players that I could generally name without having to check. Mk 3 is an excellent game and it is only slated to get better. Calm the math down. @everyone, I'm sorry that I flew off the handle before but I hate 2 things out of these discussions: 1. People who don't play anymore but spend a disproportionate amount of time complaining about balance in a game they don't play. 2. People who play a game regularly but refuse to see its positives and only focus on the negatives. If you don't play a game you simply cannot complement on its balance. Internal balance is better than it was in mk 2 for most cases and external balance is unquestionably better. If you badmouth something you play often, then I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, no. Mk3 is the current 'official' edition, for better or for worse, and it's the one that venues are going to be running, at least for the next little while. On top of that, the PG program (RIP) ensured that the majority of event organizers weren't going to (and TBH, couldn't) depart from the official format. It takes literally YEARS for an older, unofficial version of a game to make it's way back, even if it's widely seen as superior. The 'official' version will always have more traction, initially, just because it's official. The fact that people aren't just rushing back to Mk2 at this point means sweet diddly-squat at this point. In fact, any comparison between Mk2 and Mk3 is at core fallacious. With a few exceptions, (power up, cavalry, now power attack targeting) Mk2 and Mk3 ARE THE SAME GAME. The core mechanics did not change in any fundamental way in the transition (that's not a bad thing, WM/H core rules are the best thing about the game.) The real changes were to the individual models/units, and they was more negative than there was positive. I am (among others) a Circle player. I would even call myself a fairly GOOD circle player, in that I win much more often than I lose. I'm not 'backseat-designing' Mk3, and I have played most of the models I have critiqued. And I will tell you that I play a significantly smaller percentage of my factions' options than I did in Mk2. The internal balance of the faction is craptacular, with decent units becoming terrible (and boring - see druids) and bad units getting inexplicably worse (woldwardens, woldwatchers, blood pack, LOTF etc.) I reach for the same handful of beasts, the same 2 or 3 units, and the same 3 solos pretty much every game. That's. Not. Okay. As irritating as you find our negativity, your baseless optimism and cheerleading is equally as problematic. We've seen almost no indication that PP even recognizes the internal balance issues with factions other than Skorne (apparently, Brute thrall shield guards fixed Cryx, too...) CID right now is taken up with the release of their new faction, which IMO should not even be on the table for release until they get their existing crap under control. Combine that with knee-jerk errata that hit models no one gave a firetruck about (Haley 1,) and/or multi-nerfed 'problem models' into oblivion (Mad Dogs, Berserkers, to a lesser extent Scarsfel Griffons) while handing out few to no buffs...at this point there is literally no reason to believe that they will fix these issues. Insofar as it being 'only a few people complaining...' again, no. Look at the number of responses to this thread, and the number of people participating. The numbers here aren't unrepresentative of the numbers in the real world, either - virtually everyone at my LGS is fed up with PP, and is either already on a buying freeze, considering going on one pending further information, or outright selling off factions. I don't not enjoy playing the game. I'm having a lot of fun with my Ret. But I am not willing to condone slipshod, dismissive, and generally crappy business practices from PP, either. I am voting with my dollar, and with my internet voice as well (for whatever small amount that is worth.) Finally, what factions do you play? It's honestly asinine to say that internal balance is better in this edition, when it manifestly is not, and I suspect you're coming at this from a biased viewpoint.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 15, 2017 2:20:00 GMT
Lanz, the idea that "We didn't ask for mk 3 so I can use as my hyperbole as I want to say that PPs product is terrible" is a bad argument. You are not functionally forced to play mk 3. If the experience of playing mk 3 was so very terrible then I would imagine it wouldn't be played as much as mk 2 would be, cons would be run with filled up 'mk 2 retro tournaments' and the badmouthing of mk 3 wouldn't be contained to a minority of loud players that I could generally name without having to check. 1: Not being forced to play has no logical interaction with it being bad. Not being forced to play also has nothing to do with it being worse. A game can be worse than it used to be and still be worth playing, that doesn't mean it's still not worse. You respond as if you're not capable of understanding anything in the spectrum between loving the game and hating it. Yes, players can absolutely be more disappointed with mk3 than mk2 and still play Mk3 for a whole variety of reasons. That doesn't invalidate their disappointment or make it incorrect. 2: It's not being played as much. I know of several metas who are collapsing already and a lot of players who are stepping out of the game. Do you honestly think that major tournaments represent the entire player-base and not just the most enthusiastic players to begin with? Do you think that would honestly change overnight even if the most enthusiastic players were disappointed in the game? If you have the stats to show the amount of players that attend something like Lock 'n Load, let's see them, and we'll compare to this year's when it happens. I know the whole group I went with last year are absolutely not going this year, and neither am I.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 15, 2017 2:35:27 GMT
I've totally seen metas dying, I've also seen metas growing.
So far I've yet to see many good reasons for why mk 3 is worse than mk 2, or that mk 3 is bad.
I just carry on and play the game, make new lists and try new things and enjoy it. I want to talk about the game but the endless whining negativity spills into places that it should go away from. Go check the thread I made about the gravedigger spoilers in the cygnar forums which quickly turned into a dumb shit fight when we should be talking about cool war dollies.
You've all aired your grievances. Good job. Maybe it's time to be a little optimistic? What are you working on? What's something you are trying to learn how to beat?
What is wrong with just enjoying something without endlessly talking about how "problematic" it is. What does the whining get you now that PP has no chance to see it? Do you enjoy complaining without acts trying to make things better?
What is the point of being a negative Nancy when you could actually enjoy good things?
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 15, 2017 2:47:10 GMT
As I said, venting should have it's own place. It will gradually go back on its own, too, though. Right now there's a lot of reason to be pissed off at PP. A lot of reasons to doubt the direction they are going in, beyond just the state of mk3. This is all current stuff, so of course people are talking about it. The fact remains that this is not the PP forum, no amount of whining here actually accomplishes anything or reaches the eyes that need to see it, so there's no point except just to vent. People know that, but it's too early to expect everyone to have cooled off, especially when the PG and forum thing just happened.
People will vent for now, the frustration is still fresh. A thread like this, that stirs the pot or complains more? This is not where you will find productive discussion on what people are working on or trying to beat. This is not the place for that discussion, so there's no point griping here about people complaining in a thread dedicated to the topic. Here you'll just find the salt of people upset, and the salt of people upset at people being upset.
Is it spilling over into threads where it doesn't belong? Then tell them that. Tell them that whining in that thread accomplishes nothing there, and the topic should stay on what can be done as players. If they don't listen, poke a mod and ask for help.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 15, 2017 2:51:07 GMT
Personally, while I do find it cathartic to air my grievances, part of the reason I'm doing so is explicitly in hopes of achieving the following at this point:
1. encouraging like-minded people that they are not, in fact, alone in feeling burned by PP's recent decisions (ie. as you imply we are.) 2. discouraging prospective new players from buying into the game. PP will not change until and unless they see a decrease in revenues, and on top of that, I can't in good faith encourage new players to buy into what is increasingly looking like a highly unstable game. PP killed the forum in large part because the 'negativity' - ie. calling them to account for their mistakes - was scaring off new players, and I'm vindictive enough that their attempt to silence that negativity just makes me want to spread it as far as possible.
None of this is inconsistent with providing help and support to other players, as you'd know if you checked any of the faction forums that I play.
In terms of why Mk3 is worse than Mk2 (again, the model rules, not the core rules)...I provided you with a pretty substantial argument that you've completely ignored in favor of your own view of the situation. Internal balance is crap. But keep telling me how I should feel about my blood pack, my woldwatchers, my druids, and my lord of the feast.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 15, 2017 3:08:21 GMT
You've all aired your grievances. Good job. Maybe it's time to be a little optimistic? What are you working on? What's something you are trying to learn how to beat? What is wrong with just enjoying something without endlessly talking about how "problematic" it is. What does the whining get you now that PP has no chance to see it? Do you enjoy complaining without acts trying to make things better? What is the point of being a negative Nancy when you could actually enjoy good things? This argument makes no sense. Let me flip it over here for you: You've all aired your enjoyment. Good job. Maybe it's time to be a little critical? Whats not working properly? What's something that you know how to beat but believe skews the meta too hard? What is wrong with just critiquing something without endlessly talking about how "Salty" it is. What does the praise get you now that PP has no chance to see it? Do you enjoy cheerleading without acts trying to make things better? What is the point of being a sycophantic Sally when you there are problems in the game that can be made better? Stop it. This is like a camp counselor pouncing on a kid who's not having a good time and just yelling "SMILE! SMILE GODDAMIT! SMILE YOU STUPID femdog!". It doesn't help. Trust me from first hand experience.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Mar 15, 2017 3:44:25 GMT
Ok, everyone has said their points, and at this point we see no more appropriate discussion happening on this thread without things devolving into more arguing.
Either way, thank you everyone for the good discussion. TL;DR: Non-constructive off-topic discussion. Thread locked.
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