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Post by Demeritus on Mar 14, 2017 18:25:30 GMT
I have been playing WM since 2007 and while I am ok with mk3 I do get a lot of the frustration and anger. I play both Protectorate and Retribution (picked them up GC 2009) and with mk3 I cannot stand what has happened to Protectorate. I don't gripe endlessly but I just wont even both playing Protectorate until something changes, I will not buy more for it and I am honestly close to selling it.
On the other hand Retribution is something I enjoy greatly because I feel like the faction was handled well so I do get it.
I do feel like on one hand people do complain too much and just want their faction to have good stuff and don't want to have to think about how to fight strong models but on the other there are things PP really did screw up and don't seem to want to acknowledge it.
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Post by khador247 on Mar 14, 2017 18:43:14 GMT
I think that MKIII still definitely has issues.
1. Point costs. Things like Marauders being 10 pts and Juggernauts being 12 is great. You can get a lot of work done with them especially in an environment where weaponmaster infantry isn't nearly as common. The problem though is that by them being such a good deal it makes character jacks seem really expensive and not worth the points. Also, the cost is very low relative to infantry and solos.
2. Melee infantry. Melee infantry was made almost universally worse either by direct nerfing of rules or high relative point cost. Yes infantrymachine was king in MKII but I think they went a bit far with the changes in MKIII. Combine this with the improvements to warjacks (power up, increased warjack points for casters (even after factoring in the new point scale), and better stats) and it sways things too much in my opinion.
3. Mercenaries in faction armies. Mercs used to be commonplace in my lists, both infantry and solos. Now I find it hard to take any. They don't receive buffs from faction spells now unless you spend more points for ranking officers and their points often seem very prohibitive.
In short I do not agree with a lot of people that MKIII is so much better than MKII. In hindsight I think we could have kept MKII and made the improvements to warjacks from MKIII and probably would have had a better product than MKIII.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 14, 2017 18:56:08 GMT
Having players with MK2 experience/history is the worst thing for current Warmachine/Hordes.
New players to the game (MK3 only) don't mind that THE unit(s) or THE solo(s) they bought get obliterated before doing much. There is not that much invested. No expectations. They're growing up in the world of jack vs. beast!
Experienced players with extensive model collections hate that their reasonable-competitive options for on-table use feel severely limited/channeled. And that ire has been/is expressed.
I see our venue's experienced players doing army sales, army switching (largely away from Hordes), but not a whole lot of buying. New players are buying, but with some caution. And we experienced ones have to watch out that we don't opine 'they were better in MK2' too much/often!
That said, there may be a global game problem when the new players and experienced players independently gravitate to the same 'set' of models in most armies (appears so in our venue). It suggests internal, as well as external, faction balance discrepancies.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 14, 2017 20:19:55 GMT
Jesus, looks like the horde of whiners has finally hit, making sweeping statements about game balance while often simultaneously saying that they haven't played in months.
There also seem to be a lot of amateur game designers here who think that it is "obvious" when something is broken, rather than when it is just good. I'm curious when those players will release their perfectly balanced wargame with a 1/10th of the diversity and depth of warmahordes.
The amount of QQing over nothing is staggering for a company that does as much for its customers as PP does. CIDs only problem is giving voices to players who clearly aren't in the right mindset to test things properly. Players who think that Grymkin are op (lol, with a weakness to guns and an inability to close the gap well when your opponent doesn't make a mistake how are they op?), players who think karchev was over nerfed (have you played him? He's still an unkillable caster with great attrition and scenario options).
If you haven't played the game for months, I don't think you can really make any claim to understand the current game balance. If you think that Mk 3 is bad because of some bungled release I would like to show you "every product release ever".
If you are upset that PP is unwilling to change their rules, maybe it's because when you participate in the CID you are overly relying on theory rather than testing that others can see and critique.
Maybe it's just because it's early in the morning, but all of this is particularly annoying to me today.
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 14, 2017 20:30:14 GMT
I do think that Grymkin that bring 60 dread rots or 2 units of pigs do not have that problem, but yeah. This is after playing double piggies under Heretic, so nit just talking out my butt.
Still though, guys there is a ton of salt in this forum. I suggest going to cool off for a bit guys.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 14, 2017 20:40:29 GMT
Grymkin are the only thing I have been playing lately. About 25 or so games in now and they seem to be pretty well balanced. There are some models I'll never put on the table though just like all factions. Also nice to see Octavius is in normal pot calling kettle black form as usual lol
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 14, 2017 20:47:40 GMT
Agreed.
This thread is ridiculous - the issue isn't firetrucking OP models. It's OP models/interaction that anyone with a modicum of common sense should have caught within minutes. Una2 with Griffons. Karchev with Jackspam. These are not off the wall lists, and should never have made it out of playtesting as is.
Couple that with an attitude towards nerfing that tends towards overlapping, unnecessary nerfs (Karchev may be fine, but when did you last see a mad dog?) and numerous factions where 60% of their options are crap, and yeah, no. PP need to clean up their crap before they get to complain about whining.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 14, 2017 21:05:38 GMT
Jesus, looks like the horde of whiners has finally hit, making sweeping statements about game balance while often simultaneously saying that they haven't played in months. Oh Joy the Sycophants arrived to tell people that things are working right; just shut up. Like they did in MKI and MKII. You sure hate sweeping statements about the game but are fine with sweeping statements directed at people. PP HAS been letting through very obvious rules interactions. Even the most BASIC Khador Player knew that the Winter Gaurd List as it was, was just a flat buff to any Jack List.
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Post by cybrid on Mar 14, 2017 21:07:38 GMT
Have I traveled back in time is this the PP forums? Going through this thread it's like everyone just copy pasted their answers from the old PP thread with this same title. As for the actual discussion going on here, I for one am glad PP have finally decided to fix models that are over the top. Mk2 was dominated by the same casters for years and it got boring as hell to play. Its one of the reasons I stopped playing before mk3 came out. Lets not even get into the fact that not every faction is a power faction like Cygnar or Khador. Some factions didn't have legitimate answers to things like 2una or mad dog spam without devoting an entire list of jank to counter one caster. If you have to do that good luck building a list to cover 99% of everything else that is out there with your second list. At the end of the day is there a lot of whining yes but there are a lot of legitimate issues as well.
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Post by welshhoppo on Mar 14, 2017 21:08:18 GMT
Except Karchev is Khadors Jack spam caster. I agree the mad dog needed work to it, but the issue wasn't that it was too cheap. Because only Karchev used them. It was just a bad force multiplier. Now you'll never see a mad dog, berserker or even a Rager because the rest of our jacks are only a few points more, and considerably better.
The chance to explode is not a good trait to have.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 14, 2017 21:16:25 GMT
I could somehow understand how it could happen, between edition changes, that you just fail to test spams with Karchev, who has all the jacks of his faction at his disposal, but how anyone could let 2una slip through is beyond my imagination.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 14, 2017 21:23:00 GMT
Can we maybe not have the same flamewar we had on the old forums? There is really no merit in this. This is a fresh start and I'd be thankful if we could manage to not mess it up.
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Post by welshhoppo on Mar 14, 2017 21:24:03 GMT
Yeah, 2Una was just bad.
But again. It was a force multiplier in action. A few things that aren't that bad merge together to form something awful.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 14, 2017 21:27:09 GMT
Can we maybe not have the same flamewar we had on the old forums? There is really no merit in this. This is a fresh start and I'd be thankful if we could manage to not mess it up. I would prefer not to have a flamewar. But I'm not willing to stop talking about my views on PP's recent decisions, which is going to naturally put me in opposition to PP apologists. PP is a business, it's only going to change it's tune if it starts seeing a decrease in sales. I'm doing my bit to reduce those sales until they start making those changes in terms of communication and prioritizing fixing currently existing internal balance issues over pushing new models to fill their #designspace.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Mar 14, 2017 21:29:22 GMT
Right, plenty of good discussion here but I'm noticing the possible beginnings of a decline into directed insults and the labeling of other forum-users as "whatever- negative-adjective"
So I'm going to preempt it:
Please debate and conduct yourselves like adults and not resort to name-calling and labeling. Any direct insults, name calling or overly-harsh hostility (ie: buttmunch behaviour) means the offending party will be given a time out, and if necessary this thread will be locked.
Excellent, thank you for listening. Be excellent to each other and Remember the Human behind the avatar. Carry on!
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