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Post by JJDM on Mar 14, 2017 14:08:37 GMT
I think PP made a mistake by responding to whining on the forum early in Mk3. It made every faction think that if they whine hard enough, they will get their way. It just got worse and worse after the sloan change.
Almost makes one look back fondly on the days when things were broken for years in Mk2 with no hope of them being changed. You just had to learn to deal with it as best you could.
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Post by dragash on Mar 14, 2017 14:23:13 GMT
I don't think making changes based on player complaints is a mistake.
The mistake was doing it after MK3 had been officially released, as opposed to releasing a trial ruleset and then taking on board issues/complaints before releasing the finalised version.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 14, 2017 14:26:11 GMT
I don't think making changes based on player complaints is a mistake. The mistake was doing it after MK3 had been officially released, as opposed to releasing a trial ruleset and then taking on board issues/complaints before releasing the finalised version. So many wasted faction decks.
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Post by dragash on Mar 14, 2017 14:54:14 GMT
I don't think making changes based on player complaints is a mistake. The mistake was doing it after MK3 had been officially released, as opposed to releasing a trial ruleset and then taking on board issues/complaints before releasing the finalised version. So many wasted faction decks. Pretty much. I mean it's a bit annoying if you bought a new card, only to have it effectively be out of date after just a month. Also, it just seems rather unprofessional to release a new ruleset and then almost immediately have to start papering over the cracks.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Mar 14, 2017 15:38:35 GMT
Karchev was NOT fixed, he was overnerfed into oblivion along with the Berserker.
Also, It kinda bothers me seeing people talking about CiD as if it's the second coming, that's only gonna lead to disappointment; for example right now I see grossly OP Grymkin that I very much doubt are gonna get reigned in in the CiD phase.
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vitzh
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 8
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Post by vitzh on Mar 14, 2017 15:38:42 GMT
Isn't it an open secret at this point in time that PP is actually fairly bad with balance? Not recently either, but forever. The player base has traditionally been incredibly forgiving of these problems.
The Mk2 fieldtest is looked back upon glowingly but even that was flawed. What it was great at was providing the player base a sense of agency while smoothing over the worst of PPs initial Mk2 mistakes.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 14, 2017 15:44:32 GMT
The constant calls for nerfs can get under your skin. Still it is simply PPs fault. Releasing a game in a poor state (after months of advertising how great the balance will be and how everything will be useable and good). Even for new, MK3, released models, experienced players saw problems in minutes-> 2una . Problems they should have known if they really playtested them. I also have the feeling they are trying to milk their playerbase and we will see how it will impact sales in the long run.
MK2 had it's problems, especially at the end (denny2 tier, Bradigus, Croaks, EE , FoH,...) and it took months until they fixed them (until everyone bought into those spams). And now it is that again. I'am really not seeing a huge difference so far. Aside from luckily killing (in some cases really killing) the biggest problem casters/locks of mk2. And even when they nerf something they often are doing too much. Like the Karchev and Mad dog "fix".it was basically like all their mk2->mk3 transition nerfs. They nerfed some (not all for examople Haley 2, Denny1 not enough, others way too much like gaspy2 )to a different degree and also nerfed all the toys these casters typically used , making the toys or the caster or both unused. Does designspace mean : Make all old models weak so they all buy our new stuff? The start of MK3 and the end of MK2 doesn't make me hopeful for the future. It is a new edition with the same balance problems so far, just the names of offenders are different.
And lastly: It also lost depth. Between not being able to attack friendly models in SOME situations (makes it of course clearer for beginners), to Hordes losing options because of the self "animi problem" and also often just seeing spam on the other side, we lost just so much depth.
I have not bought anything since July. I would have to invest around 300-500$ to build competitive lists again (for each of my factions) and would still have about 70-80% of my MK2 models unused. There are other, younger systems out there. Many, i would say, heavy influenced by warmachines "rules first" mentality. And all of those are real skirmish games (Malifaux, GB, Infinity to call a few). i would be less upset if a single model gets tweaked than being buried under nearly all i own and having to basically restart my collection. Atm it feels like i'am a customer of GW again. Not only because of what i just wrote but also "other" business decisions like closing Forums, no PGs, price increases ...
edit: you can still proxy you don't have to buy the models to test (what you think is) a competitive list.
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Post by redoctober on Mar 14, 2017 15:46:29 GMT
I think the execution of MK3 was a hot mess and the release was premature. PP also seems to be in a sort of identity crisis. They released MK3 like any other release with faction decks and color hard back books. Then, in mid-stream, they announced that they are doing dynamic updates which completely invalidated cards and entries in the MK3 books. I got burned with buying the Khador deck and Merc deck. If I had known that they were going down the road of dynamic updates and constant changes, I would have just stuck with War Room. I'm just glad I didn't buy the book (and I love hard copy books!). Aside from the painting tips in the main book, there is no reason for me to buy it. Talk about a complete waste of company resources used to develop their book. To give PP credit though, I really liked the inclusion of the basic rules in the new battlegroups.
I also do not like the shooting from the hip changes. At least to me, it appears that PP just doesn't have a handle on the game like they used to. I'm not talking about balance issues between factions. I'm talking about basic rules interactions. You simply can't say that you have tested MK3 for years and let some glaring problems slip through (flank/gang, charging knockdown model, laser targeted throws, etc). To add insult to injury, PP foolishly took a "everything is as intended" stance but later caved and errated some of that stuff.
While I don't mind a few changes in an edition, I don't like a miniatures game that is constantly changing. That's call beta testing. IMHO MK3 was not a fully tested game ready for production. I'm not buying anything until the game levels out.
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 14, 2017 16:11:52 GMT
druzhinadropout Avatar Mar 14, 2017 9:03:31 GMT druzhinadropout said: So let us be challenged by the strong models in the game like we used be, not threatened by them. Innovate and overcome and trust that the CID and dynamic updates in time will deal with those truly broken. I kind of agree with that, but let's remember that we also had faction partisans desperately trying to run interference over their broken stuff to apparently try and divert PP attention away from it. Every thing that "obviously" needed a fix in hindsight had ardent defenders insisting you needed to just adapt and git gud. I think PP made a mistake by responding to whining on the forum early in Mk3. It made every faction think that if they whine hard enough, they will get their way. It just got worse and worse after the sloan change. Almost makes one look back fondly on the days when things were broken for years in Mk2 with no hope of them being changed. You just had to learn to deal with it as best you could. No, nothing will make me look back fondly on them. Mk3 could be the time of too much response to complaints, but MK2 was unquestionably the time of nowhere near enough response. Mk2 was a broken, solved mess by the end, we were just resigned to the fact that it wasn't ever going to get directly fixed, so we made the best of it (or quit, as I was considering doing after a hideous no good very bad tournament of no fun allowed).
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Post by danith00 on Mar 14, 2017 17:14:19 GMT
I'm not sure what you guys are seeing. But, Mk3 is way better off than Mk2 ever was. Sure it has problems (Doesn't ever game), but as far as balanced goes its pretty fairly good. I see many different lists in every steamroller or event I go to. Not everyone is running heavy spam. Karchev isn't nerf to the ground. Una2 was fixed. PP isn't a big enough company to play test every single model 100x over. There are too many small interactions to account for.
People need to understand that this game will NEVER be perfect. You just have to swallow that.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 14, 2017 17:20:44 GMT
2una has a very limited choice of models she should use . It is not like the strong 2una lists used models that would not be the first things you would try.
better than MK2s external balance yes but internal is a lot worse.
No one expects this game to be perfect.
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Post by Permutation Servitor on Mar 14, 2017 17:31:58 GMT
Karchev was NOT fixed, he was overnerfed into oblivion along with the Berserker. To-MAY-to, to-MAH-to.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 14, 2017 17:38:31 GMT
Karchev just switched the spam ^^ . (Marauder let's see for how long) The poor Mad dog feels now a little alone and abused.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 14, 2017 17:58:38 GMT
I don't even play Khador, but I'm sad about the Mad Dog. The Berserker chassis is just such a cool concept. It just explodes every once in a while.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 14, 2017 18:24:50 GMT
I feel the faction is about right myself, so that's a matter of opinion. I'd be curious to hear what you think is so OP in the Grymkin thread. As to disappointment in the CiD process, I can agree. PP is far too resistant to change even when a lot of the testers are clearly pointing out things.
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