Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 14, 2017 16:30:43 GMT
ghost fleet, that... honestly, i wont be buying into it. ill wait for the other themes. i dont have any units of them. so just to make one list would be kind of expensive. but if they can make an "un-usable" unit shine, im looking forward to the other 2 themes. banes with free UAs and free BLT? sure... (bane theme not confirmed or mentioned anywhere, just saying...) although i must admit, im not a fan of something only being viable in theme. Bane theme confirmed to be a NQ release, CID cycle after grymkin.
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Post by darkshroud on Mar 14, 2017 16:33:23 GMT
you other 2 guys have the same reservations about the theme as i do.
im not dropping that much money on something no matter how good. i never bought into the 3 knight skarre list of mk2 bc its too one dimensional for me.
but, i guess what im getting at is, wait for themes.
if not that, wait for theme books for the respective theme that uses models you like.
again, ill be honest and say i dont like the new book structure theyve taken to. now i have to wait a year for new stuff? yes i know a book comes out in a month or two, but outside of that?
(shrugs) we shall see, i guess.
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Post by darkshroud on Mar 14, 2017 16:33:50 GMT
ghost fleet, that... honestly, i wont be buying into it. ill wait for the other themes. i dont have any units of them. so just to make one list would be kind of expensive. but if they can make an "un-usable" unit shine, im looking forward to the other 2 themes. banes with free UAs and free BLT? sure... (bane theme not confirmed or mentioned anywhere, just saying...) although i must admit, im not a fan of something only being viable in theme. Bane theme confirmed to be a NQ release, CID cycle after grymkin. oh...cool!
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Post by bfdhud on Mar 14, 2017 16:36:06 GMT
That would actually be nice. I already have banes. It'd be nice to get some work out of them.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 14, 2017 16:47:44 GMT
Just to highlight what that CID means: Banes in general are going through CID for potential changes
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 14, 2017 16:51:46 GMT
Heard about it could not find any proof that this will happen only a few people of our community are saying it.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 14, 2017 17:11:47 GMT
The conversation is finished.
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Post by darkshroud on Mar 14, 2017 18:04:43 GMT
or maybe theyre mad that their OP stuff from MK2 isnt any more and havent given the new rules a decent shot. its definitely not a failure. not sure where youre getting that from. its ok to not enjoy a game. some people like risk, i personally dont. doesnt mean im going to run to the designers and scream they need to change it. i dont like sports games. doesnt mean im going to play them. or fighting games. dont tell me cryx wasnt completely unbalanced before. bc it was atrocious. biles were stupid good. i get the frustation with recursion, i think they need to take another look at that. i agree that raiders needed to lose AD and gain +2 movement from capt. id agree that banes were too good. i think they should have kept stealth and dropped tough instead, but oh well. it just means that running skarre isnt, move guys up turn1 and 2, feat turn 3 and kill most of their stuff for 5 health and now they cant reliably kill stuff. thats not okay. if thats the type of game youre looking for, theyre trying to change that Except both sport and Risk games aren't anything like a wargame... A wargame has multiple factions, and most of all, needs to be balanced in a way that's fun to play. That is one of the first things you learn in game design during college. Note I didn't say everything had to be perfectly equal - then we'd might as well be playing chess. In the case of miniature wargames, the end goal is that every model has a place in a player's collection. Of course, this is damn near impossible with new releases, expansions, etc, but that doesn't mean that every player is expected to have a single type of unit in every single list, because the biggest draw of these types of games is choice - they get to choose what they field, not the meta, not the opponent's list, they do. Near all of your examples are dependent on a caster, which, according to the game designers, is exactly what was intended. Obviously, certain things needed to be fixed - I wasn't that bothered when Banes lost stealth, since they got ghostly meaning they can hide in forests and behind cover and not be punished for it. However, I was disappointed when they didn't balance Cryx with other factions in mind. They made most of Cryx's jacks much more fragile than others of the same PC, and then give them the defense of infantry. The reason why Erebus is so good is that that's what the defensive stats of our chassis should have been, if we're sticking with what the devs intended. Our infantry were intended to be supported by our casters, but very few of our casters actually support them. What does this mean? If a developer gives false expectations about a game and then doesn't deliver, it's considered lying and is often met with the game either being dropped or vastly changing to bring back customers. sports games dont have teams that have players that need to be balanced? in that regard. some players ARE better. but in the end they cost points for an overall fixed roster total. you mention choice in your second paragraph. which i think isnt as much choice as you think you have. are you really going to take mechanithralls and halberdiers vs cygnar because you know theyll get shot off the board. no, you take blood witches and raiders and carrion thralls because you know theyll close the gap before getting shot off the table. then you might say, but eleap. ok, so then you take more jacks instead. playing against trolls? greivous wounds and rfp to negate tough. (rfp happens before tough is checked for, right? honest question, not being sarcastic) Then when you face khador, you know youll probably want some armor cracking. so you probably wont take raiders or blood witches unless youre taking gaspy1. so no, you really dont have the freedom of choice if you want to be competitive. i guess one could argue, unless you want to be the person asking the questions rather than answering them. but thats a whole other topic... what do you mean by " they didnt balance us with other factions in mind"? our jacks are fragile, but slayer chase is mat 7 where most others are 6. also def 13. on a 10 pt large base. id agree that our crab jacks need looking at. very few of our casters support our units? gaspy has arm debuffs, clouds, or def and arm dubuffs, denny debuffs heavily aiakos has carnage and scything touch terminus gives undead tough venny has mortaility skarre has a feat and dark guidance and black spot and deathward coven helps deliver, arm debuff, ghost walk, gives them stealth sturgis has parasite and has a feat for threat extension. aggy gives them ghost walk, and has an arm debuff id agree that goreshade and morty dont really help. but i think its a little ignorant to say "very few of our casters help our troops"
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 14, 2017 18:13:33 GMT
Except both sport and Risk games aren't anything like a wargame... A wargame has multiple factions, and most of all, needs to be balanced in a way that's fun to play. That is one of the first things you learn in game design during college. Note I didn't say everything had to be perfectly equal - then we'd might as well be playing chess. In the case of miniature wargames, the end goal is that every model has a place in a player's collection. Of course, this is damn near impossible with new releases, expansions, etc, but that doesn't mean that every player is expected to have a single type of unit in every single list, because the biggest draw of these types of games is choice - they get to choose what they field, not the meta, not the opponent's list, they do. Near all of your examples are dependent on a caster, which, according to the game designers, is exactly what was intended. Obviously, certain things needed to be fixed - I wasn't that bothered when Banes lost stealth, since they got ghostly meaning they can hide in forests and behind cover and not be punished for it. However, I was disappointed when they didn't balance Cryx with other factions in mind. They made most of Cryx's jacks much more fragile than others of the same PC, and then give them the defense of infantry. The reason why Erebus is so good is that that's what the defensive stats of our chassis should have been, if we're sticking with what the devs intended. Our infantry were intended to be supported by our casters, but very few of our casters actually support them. What does this mean? If a developer gives false expectations about a game and then doesn't deliver, it's considered lying and is often met with the game either being dropped or vastly changing to bring back customers. sports games dont have teams that have players that need to be balanced? in that regard. some players ARE better. but in the end they cost points for an overall fixed roster total. you mention choice in your second paragraph. which i think isnt as much choice as you think you have. are you really going to take mechanithralls and halberdiers vs cygnar because you know theyll get shot off the board. no, you take blood witches and raiders and carrion thralls because you know theyll close the gap before getting shot off the table. then you might say, but eleap. ok, so then you take more jacks instead. playing against trolls? greivous wounds and rfp to negate tough. (rfp happens before tough is checked for, right? honest question, not being sarcastic) Then when you face khador, you know youll probably want some armor cracking. so you probably wont take raiders or blood witches unless youre taking gaspy1. so no, you really dont have the freedom of choice if you want to be competitive. i guess one could argue, unless you want to be the person asking the questions rather than answering them. but thats a whole other topic... what do you mean by " they didnt balance us with other factions in mind"? our jacks are fragile, but slayer chase is mat 7 where most others are 6. also def 13. on a 10 pt large base. id agree that our crab jacks need looking at. very few of our casters support our units? gaspy has arm debuffs, clouds, or def and arm dubuffs, denny debuffs heavily aiakos has carnage and scything touch terminus gives undead tough venny has mortaility skarre has a feat and dark guidance and black spot and deathward coven helps deliver, arm debuff, ghost walk, gives them stealth sturgis has parasite and has a feat for threat extension. aggy gives them ghost walk, and has an arm debuff id agree that goreshade and morty dont really help. but i think its a little ignorant to say "very few of our casters help our troops" We were asked to stop, so let it go.
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Post by darkshroud on Mar 14, 2017 18:18:48 GMT
no, we were asked to get back on topic rather than "Arguments based on cryx players wanting to be "op" again have exactly zero place here and will not be tolerated further."
the discussion im having with you isnt about that.
you brought up your negative view points on the faction and i refuted them.
which is exactly what this thread is about...
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 14, 2017 18:23:04 GMT
no, we were asked to get back on topic rather than "Arguments based on cryx players wanting to be "op" again have exactly zero place here and will not be tolerated further." the discussion im having with you isnt about that. you brought up your negative view points on the faction and i refuted them. I was trying to tell you that you calling veterans whiners who only wanted OP Cryx back (which is far from the truth, people could beat them with the right tools, just it was harder for new players, which is what I suspect you were) was bltantly wrong and they had a point. Arguments based on cryx players wanting to be "op" again have exactly zero place here and will not be tolerated further.
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Post by darkshroud on Mar 14, 2017 18:30:05 GMT
no, we were asked to get back on topic rather than "Arguments based on cryx players wanting to be "op" again have exactly zero place here and will not be tolerated further." the discussion im having with you isnt about that. you brought up your negative view points on the faction and i refuted them. I was trying to tell you that you calling veterans whiners who only wanted OP Cryx back (which is far from the truth, people could beat them with the right tools, just it was harder for new players, which is what I suspect you were) was bltantly wrong and they had a point. then maybe i misread what direction they were trying to take. but when reading the title of the thread and others complained that the faction didnt work like it use to, i read it as, wishing it was the old days. i was clearly wrong. i was just pointing out that things arent as bad and tried to back up reasoning. apologies if it didnt come across the way i hoped.
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Post by bfdhud on Mar 14, 2017 18:48:47 GMT
For me at least, it isn't that I want Mk2 Cryx back. It's that I chose cryx because they were the infantry faction. They are no longer the infantry faction. Factions generally speaking have a bit of flavor that makes players want to play them.
What would Khador look like if Cygnar suddenly was able to out ARM Khador Jacks? Or Is skorne could out movement shenanigans Circle. How would menoth look if they lost Fire / Burning and all those magical weapons. What if trolls lost tough and started getting more small based infantry..
Getting slammed with the nerf bat is only half the problem, the other is we lost what made us Cryx.
Staying positive involves hoping that at some point we are able to slim down on jacks taken and take more non-raider infantry and still be able to give a good game to the opponent.
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Post by darkshroud on Mar 14, 2017 18:59:02 GMT
For me at least, it isn't that I want Mk2 Cryx back. It's that I chose cryx because they were the infantry faction. They are no longer the infantry faction. Factions generally speaking have a bit of flavor that makes players want to play them. What would Khador look like if Cygnar suddenly was able to out ARM Khador Jacks? Or Is skorne could out movement shenanigans Circle. How would menoth look if they lost Fire / Burning and all those magical weapons. What if trolls lost tough and started getting more small based infantry.. Getting slammed with the nerf bat is only half the problem, the other is we lost what made us Cryx. Staying positive involves hoping that at some point we are able to slim down on jacks taken and take more non-raider infantry and still be able to give a good game to the opponent. unfortunately, PP wants more robots. at least, thats what i gather from powerup and tripling of wj pts. but luckly, they see that some people dont want to run them. so we get stuff like ghost fleet. i get some people dont want to keep throwing money at the faction to play it, i dont. but this now requires us to see what they do with the other themes. we technically havent seen all of mk3 yet, with most factions not having 3 themes yet. so im sure youll be pleasantly surprised. seeing how they did circle, im hopeful EDIT: may i ask what you think we lost that made us cryx? or was it just the lack of being able to mass infantry?
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 14, 2017 19:05:42 GMT
For me at least, it isn't that I want Mk2 Cryx back. It's that I chose cryx because they were the infantry faction. They are no longer the infantry faction. Factions generally speaking have a bit of flavor that makes players want to play them. What would Khador look like if Cygnar suddenly was able to out ARM Khador Jacks? Or Is skorne could out movement shenanigans Circle. How would menoth look if they lost Fire / Burning and all those magical weapons. What if trolls lost tough and started getting more small based infantry.. Getting slammed with the nerf bat is only half the problem, the other is we lost what made us Cryx. Staying positive involves hoping that at some point we are able to slim down on jacks taken and take more non-raider infantry and still be able to give a good game to the opponent. unfortunately, PP wants more robots. at least, thats what i gather from powerup and tripling of wj pts. but luckly, they see that some people dont want to run them. so we get stuff like ghost fleet. i get some people dont want to keep throwing money at the faction to play it, i dont. but this now requires us to see what they do with the other themes. we technically havent seen all of mk3 yet, with most factions not having 3 themes yet. so im sure youll be pleasantly surprised. seeing how they did circle, im hopeful EDIT: may i ask what you think we lost that made us cryx? or was it just the lack of being able to mass infantry? I think we're suffering from Tyraniditis. Our fluff says we will throw bodies at them until they run out of bullets, but the thing is that shooting is so good that they never do run out of bullets! Our speed is our most precious stat, with our slowest jack being SPD 5, but with guns being so good this edition that DEF 13/12 is trivial, we can never reach them.
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