|
Post by Cryptix on Mar 21, 2017 1:47:39 GMT
What I want to see: - The Bane Knights get a UA with Tactics: Retaliatory Strike and get Void Bringer, allowing them to have a clear anti-infantry role. - Warriors UA instead gains Show of Force (boosted attack rolls) and gets 1 point cheaper. - Curse gets changed to be an additional die on attack and damage rolls, dropping lowest. - Goreshade2 gets No Sleeping on the Job (Banes). - Tartarus costs 6 points, gets Leadership (Banes) Rapid Strike.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Mar 21, 2017 2:17:58 GMT
Imho the warriors ua is costed pretty aggressively compared to other banner UAs. most only add one models worth of offensive stats and a derpy banner than you put in the way to die, while the warrior UA comes with 3 weapon master attacks along will all of the normal UA buffs. I do however think that they should swap tactics and granted on rise and tough respectively (it is tactics: rise and granted: tough currently correct?) That way the unit would always have tough, but killing the officer would take out their ability to easily get back up afterward. Not sure on the rest. The curse change matters for a lot more than banes (hi Reznik2,) and rapid strike on ps13 weaponmasters seems actually nuts, especially if there are any either buffs available (I have no idea if tartarus does, mind you.) Maybe have him give leadership: cleave, or leadership:stealth like the grotesque assassin?
|
|
|
Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 21, 2017 9:41:43 GMT
I'm ok with the Bane Thralls themselves. The UA is a point too expensive I think. I think Bane Knights need something, but not sure what that is. I like cryptix's suggestion for Curse.
|
|
Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
|
Post by Nyxu on Apr 9, 2017 2:22:29 GMT
This is the cryx forum there's no such thing as "bad" necromancy.
HEY GUYS I GOT 3RD IN A STEAMROLLER. THAT'S PRETTY POSITIVE
OK, some summaries: 19-player Steamroller, 75pt, 2 list, must play both lists. Generic objective. Match 1: Ghost Fleet Vs Maddox (Storm Division) - Entrenched (Recreated from memory) Maddox -Brickhouse -Stormclad Journeyman -Firefly Laddermore Savio Acosta Stormblade captain Strangewayes Storm Lances Grenadiers Stormblades + UA and a gun
I landed Crippling grasp on the horses T1, took some hits here and there but recovered most of my lost models thanks to good rolls. Dauntless Resolve on Stormlances isn't fun. Tough cav. Turn 2 I went and popped feat, put damage where I could, failed to kill two stormlances with Deneghra next to them, got my opponent rather neatly jammed up. They couldn't get the damage they needed on Deneghra, and Turn 3 I dropped Scourge on a model next to his warcaster through an arc node he... hadn't killed or even engaged with Brickhouse. (This basically cost him the match, I think.) By this point, one of my min units was down to three rifles, the other was about at max, and I had three ghost raiders remaining. The raiders were in line to charge Maddox, but I went ahead and just emptied the guns. Levi rolled a 6 to determine shots, landed enough damage to bring Maddox to one, and then a shot from Rengrave turned the warcaster into just another gibbering member of the crew.
Match 2: Gaspy3 Vs Kaelyssa: Recon Kaelyssa -Sylys -Banshee -Hydra MHA x2 lys Healer Magister x2 Elara -Discordia Mechanik x2 Sentinels + UA
This went.. badly. Barathrum, dug in on a hill ahead of the objective, was made stationary then flat murdered with no actual way to retaliate, same with Vociferon. Refuge + Speed of Death is just unpleasant. I got super salty, realized it, apologized because it was probably obvious as hell, and my opponent (Who went on to go 3-0 and split the prize pool) laid out exactly what the situation was that was making the game so poor for me. Being able to break down exactly where I wasn't doing well, etc, was helpful for me, and I was able to joke and laugh my way through enjoying handing over 99 points of army destruction as he systematically disassembled my list and then killed my warcaster.
Match 3, Ghost Fleet vs Supreme Kommandant Irusk (WGK) Irusk, - Destroyer x2 Field gun x2 Mortar Marksman Kovnik Joe Widowmakers Max WGRC + Rockets x2 Min WGI + UA x2 We had decided to both play our "dudespam" lists for shiggles, because the two of us enjoy playing each other and he thought it would be particularly funny. It was an absolute slog, with my blackbanes growing within his left flank while he ate his way through my units of revenants on the right. Deneghra feat turn vs Irusk in his manmade bunker was unpleasant, and I didn't manage to kill him (missed the Crippling grasp, got him down to 7 boxes despite.) My opponent put a big push in to assassinate Denny, camping 0, and unfortunately he clocked himself with Denny at 3 boxes (he had no more attacks that could go into her) We played out what my next turn would've been and determined that, on unlimited time, I would have managed the kill the next turn with my growing cloud of dudes (And the machine wraith that survived.)
All in all, a fantastic steamroller, and a great sendoff for SR2016 and our PG.
The big "positive" moment was round 2, where simply talking about the situation at hand and getting a second opinion on things. Really brought things back into focus and perspective rather than "Augh everything is just going to shit I should concede and save myself an hour"
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 10, 2017 6:55:10 GMT
I played the same pairing in a team tournament on Saturday. I just played Gaspy 3 in every game though, partly because I haven't played Ghost Fleet enough to feel confident about it, but I really should've dropped it into a Rasheth/Xerxis 2 pairing. I ended up winning, but only because I got lucky that my opponent dropped the ball a few times because of time pressure. I managed to dodge Cygnar and win all my games, though the team lost 1 round 2-3. I even dropped Gaspy into a Denny 2 Ghost Fleet. Sure, it's only Denny 2, not 1 (that was another team member), but with all the Hellfires, I actually consider this a good matchup. Lists were (proxies were allowed for spoiled models): | Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Ghost Fleet
!!! Your army contains a pre-release entry.
(Deneghra 1) Warwitch Deneghra [+28] |
|
[/b] [*]Deathripper [6][*]Stalker [8][*]Stalker [8][/ul]Captain Rengrave [0(5)]Hellslinger Phantom [0(7)]Pistol Wraith [0(5)]Blackbane's Ghost Raiders ( max) [17]Revenant Crew of the Atramentous ( min) [9][/b] [/ul]Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (min) [9][/b] [/ul]Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (min) [9][/b] [/ul]Wraith Engine [15]Fuel Cache (Steamroller) [0][/td][td]Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points (Asphyxious 3) Asphyxious the Hellbringer [+24][/b] [*]Cankerworm [9][*]Deathjack [23][/ul]Darragh Wrathe [9]Machine Wraith [2]Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]Wrong Eye [17]Satyxis Raiders ( max) [16][/b] [/ul]Fuel Cache (Steamroller) [0][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table] I can do a write-up later. Ghost Fleet is clearly overrated and Gaspy 3 OP
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 10, 2017 13:36:26 GMT
What I want to see: - The Bane Knights get a UA with Tactics: Retaliatory Strike and get Void Bringer, allowing them to have a clear anti-infantry role. - Warriors UA instead gains Show of Force (boosted attack rolls) and gets 1 point cheaper. - Curse gets changed to be an additional die on attack and damage rolls, dropping lowest. - Goreshade2 gets No Sleeping on the Job (Banes). - Tartarus costs 6 points, gets Leadership (Banes) Rapid Strike. Clouds, you have you head in them. 3 dice drop lowest on attack and Pow13 weaponmaster damage rolls?. Two attacks from the solo. And you want them cheaper... You're not asking for a balance fix, you're asking for absolute bonkers power. Knights need some better defensive tech. Defensive strike might be interesting (retaliatory doesn't help when you're dead). Bane Riders need 2" reach or +1 speed and change their curse to match Tartarus' so that all bane models benefit. For Tartarus I'd love to see desperate pace (small-based banes). It's all about getting cryx models to the target alive so the faster the better.
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on Apr 10, 2017 22:04:59 GMT
Bane Warriors may be a point too expensive at max. Bane knights may be a touch pillowfisted on vengeance attacks. But Bane Riders need serious reconsideration, maybe a comolete overhaul. Also, the proposed change to Unhallowed on the Wraith Engine makes me think the small based banes are gonna be fine without huge changes.
Edit: IF I were a PP Dev lokking at Bane Knights, I might consider bumping them to POW 13 and changing them from Brutal Charge to something like Strength of Bone: When making a charge attack, roll an additional dice on attack and damage rolls, dropping the lowest in each. This would ever so slightly prevent the Knights from being POW 15 on charge attacks while still giving them more dice to roll, easily the best part of Bane Knights in Mk. II. I really don't think they should get Weapon Master back, that was an excellent balance, but still, they need better base attacks so theyre not bouncing off arm 18 on vengeance. I like 6s when faced with 7s.
|
|
npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
|
Post by npe on Apr 10, 2017 22:47:54 GMT
Bane Warriors may be a point too expensive at max. Bane knights may be a touch pillowfisted on vengeance attacks. But Bane Riders need serious reconsideration, maybe a comolete overhaul. Also, the proposed change to Unhallowed on the Wraith Engine makes me think the small based banes are gonna be fine without huge changes. Edit: IF I were a PP Dev lokking at Bane Knights, I might consider bumping them to POW 13 and changing them from Brutal Charge to something like Strength of Bone: When making a charge attack, roll an additional dice on attack and damage rolls, dropping the lowest in each. This would ever so slightly prevent the Knights from being POW 15 on charge attacks while still giving them more dice to roll, easily the best part of Bane Knights in Mk. II. I really don't think they should get Weapon Master back, that was an excellent balance, but still, they need better base attacks so theyre not bouncing off arm 18 on vengeance. I like 6s when faced with 7s. The new wraith engine changes the calculus on riders a bit. At de facto arm 20 against shooting and arm 22 with Skarre2 of Scaverous they become much harder to remove.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Apr 10, 2017 22:51:34 GMT
Bane Warriors may be a point too expensive at max. Bane knights may be a touch pillowfisted on vengeance attacks. But Bane Riders need serious reconsideration, maybe a comolete overhaul. Also, the proposed change to Unhallowed on the Wraith Engine makes me think the small based banes are gonna be fine without huge changes. Edit: IF I were a PP Dev lokking at Bane Knights, I might consider bumping them to POW 13 and changing them from Brutal Charge to something like Strength of Bone: When making a charge attack, roll an additional dice on attack and damage rolls, dropping the lowest in each. This would ever so slightly prevent the Knights from being POW 15 on charge attacks while still giving them more dice to roll, easily the best part of Bane Knights in Mk. II. I really don't think they should get Weapon Master back, that was an excellent balance, but still, they need better base attacks so theyre not bouncing off arm 18 on vengeance. I like 6s when faced with 7s. I agree to an extent. Provided the Wraith Engine makes it out of CID as spoiled, is in the Bane Theme, & you can take the Bane Warrior CA free in theme, Bane Warriors are totally fine and need no changes. If not they should probably cost 10/16 for the unit instead of 10/17. What I'd like to see is an overhaul for Bane Riders & Knights. I want Knights to become a counter punch unit. Lose Brutal Charge for something like Set Defense, Wall of Steel, or Shield Wall. This way they're our defensive more survivable Bane Unit where the Warriors are our unit that hits as hard as a truck and dies just as easily. This also gives Bane Knights a niche out of theme that's more than "Bad Satyxis Raiders". I have absolutely no idea how to fix Bane Riders. That unit got thrown into the dumpster in Mark3, and I can't think of any good fixes to them that don't either leave them unplayed or invalidating Soul Hunters.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 11, 2017 6:46:22 GMT
Bane Warriors may be a point too expensive at max. Bane knights may be a touch pillowfisted on vengeance attacks. But Bane Riders need serious reconsideration, maybe a comolete overhaul. Also, the proposed change to Unhallowed on the Wraith Engine makes me think the small based banes are gonna be fine without huge changes. Edit: IF I were a PP Dev lokking at Bane Knights, I might consider bumping them to POW 13 and changing them from Brutal Charge to something like Strength of Bone: When making a charge attack, roll an additional dice on attack and damage rolls, dropping the lowest in each. This would ever so slightly prevent the Knights from being POW 15 on charge attacks while still giving them more dice to roll, easily the best part of Bane Knights in Mk. II. I really don't think they should get Weapon Master back, that was an excellent balance, but still, they need better base attacks so theyre not bouncing off arm 18 on vengeance. I like 6s when faced with 7s. I agree to an extent. Provided the Wraith Engine makes it out of CID as spoiled, is in the Bane Theme, & you can take the Bane Warrior CA free in theme, Bane Warriors are totally fine and need no changes. If not they should probably cost 10/16 for the unit instead of 10/17. What I'd like to see is an overhaul for Bane Riders & Knights. I want Knights to become a counter punch unit. Lose Brutal Charge for something like Set Defense, Wall of Steel, or Shield Wall. This way they're our defensive more survivable Bane Unit where the Warriors are our unit that hits as hard as a truck and dies just as easily. This also gives Bane Knights a niche out of theme that's more than "Bad Satyxis Raiders". I have absolutely no idea how to fix Bane Riders. That unit got thrown into the dumpster in Mark3, and I can't think of any good fixes to them that don't either leave them unplayed or invalidating Soul Hunters. I agree with you, though I don't like things that are only good in theme (I like Ghost Fleet, but hate how Revenants are still shitty outside of it), so I agree about a possible point cost reduction. I very much doubt the Wraith Engine will make it in theme, I don't see a way to consolidate them fluff-wise and it would be a reason to play out of theme. I'm not sure if Bane Knights need to lose Brutal Charge to pick up a defensive ability, especially if left costed at 10/17. Banes do 2 things, they hit hard and have Ghostly, in return they are slow, but picking up one of those abilities would certainly help diversify them. I would prefer no Shield Wall as it's not really their style to go out of their way to be defensive. As far as the Bane Riders go, how about bumping them up to base POW 15 or even 16, 17-18 on the charge, and MAYBE give them 2" melee back? That would keep them much slower than Soulhunters and having less attacks still diversifies their roles. They will be easy to outrun, but boy are you in trouble if they ever get there.
|
|
Makrar
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
|
Post by Makrar on Apr 11, 2017 9:44:51 GMT
We need clear roles for each unit. Bane Warriors are slow but hard hitting so are largely fine.
Knights however mostly occupy the same design space as warriors. The increase of 1 arm is not a meaningful increase in survivability. POW 12 and Brutal Charge means they hit as hard as Warriors on the charge, Your trading Dark shroud and weapon master for Vengeance otherwise their the same unit so what is the point of this unit?
I don't think the solution is to make knights hit even harder, that's the job of Warriors. Id rather knights design got shifted to a different direction such as a defensive unit. Examples could be trading Brutal charge for Set Defense and gaining Wall of Steel etc.
|
|
|
Post by tiberius on Apr 11, 2017 10:47:16 GMT
I agree, they need to have distinct roles, the problem is, what about other non-bane units. Are we stepping on any toes for a job they are supposed to be doing? What else is a defensive unit in Cryx? Blood Gorgers? Bane Riders? Drudges? Whatever happens to knights, it shouldn't overshadow those.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 11, 2017 11:16:50 GMT
I agree, they need to have distinct roles, the problem is, what about other non-bane units. Are we stepping on any toes for a job they are supposed to be doing? What else is a defensive unit in Cryx? Blood Gorgers? Bane Riders? Drudges? Whatever happens to knights, it shouldn't overshadow those. Well, that only means they can't gain armour and can't be cheap tough bodies. Even if they were to get Wall of Steel, it would still be a different mechanic than the Bloodgorgers, but I agree that Shield Wall is unlikely.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Apr 11, 2017 11:59:41 GMT
I reckon knights need Wall of Steel.
It neatly gives them a niche that is different from bane warriors, without being the speed-hampering equivalent of shield wall.
I'd also love to see all three flavours of bane get a significant (2-4) points reduction. Their output is high, but the easily-murdered status makes their current cost untenable. Take a look at how good (and yet not game-breaking) the dread rots are from Grymkin, and they're basically banes with a couple of special rules trades. Look at those points for a reasonable guideline for hard-hitting, easy-to-kill infantry.
On a side note, I think people are a bit too optimistic about the effect of the wraith engine. Sure it sounds like a great benefit, but at the points you pay for it you might as well just buy a second unit of whatever. It's not like a kriel stone that is low-cost for your infantry buff. It sounds cool so far, but if all it does is buff undead armour I don't see banes making any real headway from where they are now, as you just won't be able to justify the cost.
Honestly, I'd love to see battle engines be purchaseable out of warjack points. That would go a long way to giving it a place in lists (especially in Cryx, where we often begrudge the points forced away from infantry as it is)
-und_ed
|
|
|
Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 11, 2017 13:54:26 GMT
I almost hope that the Wraith engine (if it retains the shooting def bubble from CID) isnt available in the bane theme. My fear is that with that tech and any theme bonuses we get will hinder the actual improvements to be made to banes as a stand alone unit. leave it so that out of theme you can go in a different direction if you wish. imho themes should be used to put the models in theme a step above the non theme interations. Or else we will just have a bane version of ghost fleet. where outside of theme no one would ever play revenant crew. And to be fair the big reason thats played now is because of the free points.
|
|