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Post by rhonlore on Aug 29, 2017 13:19:19 GMT
In my opinion the ice cage is a boring spell. Everyone seems to have access to it. Mayby the ability to put a cloud to play would be nice (but with eyeless sight also to strong) Ice Cage is a boring spell, but when spellcasters in Legion start picking it up just because they are a spellcaster in Legion, it gets more and more compelling. The more sources of incidental Ice Cage in the faction, the better it gets. |
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Post by copperflame on Aug 29, 2017 14:34:30 GMT
I don't find BFS very resilient... I really have to hold them back till late game or they die easily (or maybe I just face a lot of blast damage -.-) I know you can't have everything but at 9points - I sometimes wish they had just a little more to give or ability to play a little more forward to get the most out of Kiss. Or - like mentioned - some of our beasts get freed from Tenacity tax  For the Witches... they are 1hp unit but non-character. I am at a loss on how to play them. I have a notion to do a 3woman cell + Bloodseer to make the sprays something to fear. But I don't think they have a delivery mode to get where they need to be without being smoked before they take out anything. Something like this: conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0tbtaQbvcOcOaObubebejxjxhWhWLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation !!! Your army contains CID entries. (Vayl 2) Vayl, Consul of Everblight [+28] - Carnivean [19] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Nephilim Bloodseer [8] - Nephilim Bloodseer [8] - Seraph [14] - Succubus [0(4)] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Ice Witches [7] Ice Witches [7] Throne of Everblight [16] Throne of Everblight [16] |
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480 
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Post by thelat on Aug 29, 2017 21:52:02 GMT
What if we pushed for them to be more expensive solos that have special bonuses for working together, like the Stormcallers?
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Aug 30, 2017 7:18:32 GMT
What if we pushed for them to be more expensive solos that have special bonuses for working together, like the Stormcallers? Probably 0% chance. They have must schedule and prepare production early so changing model types, unit size ect is out off discussion mostly. Selling solos 3-pack sounds strange  And finally 3 sculpts for solo in WM&H ? Not in this century |
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Post by snotling on Aug 30, 2017 11:01:41 GMT
Id love if they gave vayl1 some elite cadre for them. Just because
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 30, 2017 12:14:13 GMT
I just noticed that they are 1hp a piece. Now I am definitely never running them. The BFS barely survive things as it is. I'm not going to pay near that price for worse stats, spells, and hit boxes.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Aug 30, 2017 14:12:36 GMT
They are a unit intended to hang out behind the battlegroup using puppet master until turn 3 or 4 after that their sprays and ice cages come out to play...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 30, 2017 15:14:04 GMT
They are a unit intended to hang out behind the battlegroup using puppet master until turn 3 or 4 after that their sprays and ice cages come out to play... I understand the intent. But that's 233% the cost of a choir member who has better support abilities. Also defense stats don't decay as the game goes on. If they can't hit a model turn 1, that's not going to change turn 3/4/5. Magic 6 is nothing but a gamble on a spray and a complete laugh for a defense debuff. Much less the offensive aspect of Puppet Master. At best they are the cheapest option we have that completely fills the pot. Actually, they might make a decent def 16 wall to hide the pot behind. Again, just my opinion that they are not nearly interesting, helpful, or pivotal for me to have any desire to put them in any list or purchase them. I will try them in a game for the sake of the CID to get my opinion out there in the accepted form for PP. But that will likely be the extent of it all. There are things I won't trade out of my list that other people regard as garbage. Everyone has their on opinions and preferences. I'm not trying to forcibly convince anyone else the witches are terrible. Though I am stating my very negative opinion. I said it on the CID forums - If they are meant to be good supports, drop the pretense of offensive spells and give them better support abilities. Puppet master on 3 arm 11, single wound models, for 7 points, is not a worthwhile model to me. I have played the BFS in dozens of games and had relied on them until I figured out a better way to cope with no dmg buff and no accuracy buff outside of my caster. If I don't need their Ice cage, i don't need the Ice witchs'. Playing dozens of games with the Sorc & Hellion I did not need it's spray. So I do not care for two spells that I already had access to on better models, on a worse model that's not cheap enough or survivable enough to do better than those existing options. Again if Bethayne had her old feat they would indeed have a home. But she doesn't and I would hate to see if come back on her card in some half-ass errata. If we get a new caster with that kind of spell support, then great. |
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Post by cainuslupus on Aug 30, 2017 15:35:48 GMT
I to believe they need more stuff to justify their price than being Puppet Master bot.
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Post by snotling on Aug 30, 2017 15:47:50 GMT
I honestly think they are fine. I will for sure take them in some lists (vayls,lylyths), and not in some others.
Thats were every model in the game should be. autoincludes are just boring
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Post by copperflame on Aug 30, 2017 18:53:38 GMT
As stated - lets be sure to get some games on the CID feedback. I don't want to situation with that we did with the Throne where a section of players were upset about the Throne's design but never provided feedback.
Not to say that our voices will be heard - just that at least if we state it, after testing, we can have a bit more ground to stand on when we call things out.
Hopefully this weekend or next I can plan a CID game with the list I've stated above.
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Post by redbaron89 on Aug 30, 2017 22:40:54 GMT
Pagani replies to recent post on cid and said he liked the idea of possibly adding chiller and or blizzard. I like the idea of them being a backfield toolbox unit that help our army get up the field and apply buffs when needed.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 31, 2017 8:08:27 GMT
If they drop Ice Cage for a spell giving Chiller to one model, I'll be very very sad.
If we "loose" don't get Puppet Master I'll probably sell my army from spite.
If they give Puppet Master to the BFS (like someone suggested), the BFS better cost 15pts or it'll be auto-include in all my lists.
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Post by maximumhippo on Aug 31, 2017 8:44:09 GMT
I'm planning on doing a few more test games with the Ice Witches. This is the list I'm currently looking at. The idea is that BFS activates, uses Kiss, lands 1 Ice cage then goes stealth, which is followed by the witches landing the lasst two Ice cages and handing out puppet master to Whoever is going in. I'm also considering trying out an assassination focused Lylyth1 list with 3 Ravagores and 2 units of witches. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0uaDg_aLaLaReKbbbbfUfUbacobrjxLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Thagrosh 2) Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Azrael [21] - Nephilim Soldier [9] - Nephilim Soldier [9] - Typhon [24] - Zuriel [18] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [0(5)] Blighted Nyss Warlord [0(5)] Incubus (5) [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Blackfrost Shard [9] Ice Witches [7] |
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Post by DanX on Aug 31, 2017 12:25:27 GMT
I suggested giving Puppet Master to just one of the BFS instead of Disbinding.
If 3 units sets of puppet master are too strong. Puppet master is about +2 to hit/damage on 3D6 I believe, which is great for our ranged RoF1 shooting things. its pretty good for Azurel too - as missing really sucks.
The games I played the witches were OK. I think they were too expensive for what they did. But I appreciate that 7 points is a better place for them to be than 6 points, at 6 points they may be too cheap for a 3 man unit that's hard to remove (comparatively) that can just go score zones. Still 3 units for 18 points probably isn't worth it - and for 21 points they don't do enough in my opinion.
The core Puppetmaster, spray bit seems to play quite well to me. People saying spray6 is rubbish - are not correct. Its OK. it can hit and kill things. it can even gentry scratch most heavy jacks. and the highest it should need to roll to hit will be about 9s.
Icecage - while a solid spell on BFS and interesting on the throne, seems poor at magic6. Landing all 3 with one unit it going to require a lot of luck against Def12 (the 12 might miss and the 10 might miss, and the 8 should be fine) With magic7, its much more likely. Sure you could use these guys to support the BFS or the Throne, but that's a lot of models dedicated to freezing something.
I'd like to see Icecage replaced with Blizzard, and them naturally have chiller built in on them.
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