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Post by rhonlore on Aug 26, 2017 14:35:36 GMT
I have a un-themed Lylyth1 list that might enjoy the Ice Witches. The list previously had BFS (9), Raek (8), and an additional Shepherd (1), but swapped those for a second Nephilim Bolt Thrower (11) and a unit of Ice Witches (7). The BFS didn't really accomplish much, so a unit that supports from the backlines would definitely be stronger. Unfortunately no theme currently accommodates all the components of the list.
(Lylyth 1) Lylyth, Herald of Everblight [+30] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Ravagore [19] - Ravagore [19] - Seraph [14] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Strider Deathstalker [4] Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18] Ice Witches [7]
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Post by cainuslupus on Aug 26, 2017 21:37:52 GMT
The other unit (in a different theme) that is a bit like them, is Groteque Banshees. 8 points for 6 rat5 (can aim) gun fighting spay6 guys, with 7 move and flight. I've played the bashees a bit, they don't clear stuff out that well even with a hit buff. Magic 6 spd 6 non-pathfinder sprays are ok, but not that exciting. Ice cage will miss a lot. Puppet master is what they are all about for sure. I'm looking for great lists that have more than one unit They're all about Puppet Master, but they may go into Oracles list as cheap infantry (since Hex Hunters need one free UA slot to be OK unit at best). Ice Cage is OK, Magic 6 spray is for those desperate attempts when everything else failed, Crit Freeze on their weapon is just flavour. I don't think they will be spammed
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Post by maximumhippo on Aug 26, 2017 23:48:21 GMT
So, I was thinking and I think I've finally nailed down the issue I have with the ice witches. They have two hit fix abilities, (PM and ice cage) but one of those is definitely better than the other. Mostly because with PM you don't need to land an offensive attack roll. Why would I cast ice cage when I can puppet master? And if I've already landed two ice cages, why would I PM when I can just make it stationary? Or more likely, I've missed the first ice cage so now there is no point in trying to land the other two. I would like to see either ice cage go or puppet master, and have it replaced by some other utility.
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Post by Falcen on Aug 26, 2017 23:56:47 GMT
I would like to see ice cage go, and have it replaced by some other utility. Fixed that for you! If one can choose between Ice Cage and Puppet Master, it's not even a contest imho...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 3:07:13 GMT
one model versus a debuff that supports your whole army? if they weren't magic 6 it would be a contest. but they aren't, so its not.
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Post by pixh on Aug 27, 2017 5:34:13 GMT
I have played a few games with the witches and one against. The lists used were existing lists that were reworked to include the girls and none were focused on assassination. Stuff I learned: I never lacked for PM targets, I could have easily put out 6 PMs most rounds and gotten use out of them. The sprays were useful to clear out troops late game, and even at magic 6 their ice cage can still reasonably hit most heavies outside of Legion and Circle.
Overall I am not disappointed with the witches. I think they could be 1 point cheaper or replace critical freeze with a small passive ability and stay at 7. As a small support unit they do their job.
I am worried they can push assassination over the top. I hope to test it out later once I think up a list.
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Post by cainuslupus on Aug 27, 2017 9:02:04 GMT
I am worried they can push assassination over the top. I hope to test it out later once I think up a list. Not likelly. Rerols just easen dice results curve, but opponent must present assassination chance. When you go for assassination with Vayl2 or Lylith3 you're either certain or desperate. In first case it can mitigate first terrible roll (with them you usually connect well beyound average) and then you just ping enemy to death. But still bad dice can screw you, you just go from 13% to 7%. When you go for last chance assassination you must roll very high few times. One reroll per model won't give you that. It can help, but your dice must be hot.
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Post by DanX on Aug 27, 2017 9:48:52 GMT
If your about to put your ravagore in melee, ice caging the target once or twice first is pretty strong. Same is true with a carnivian. They are great at missing even khador jack's. Plus 2 mat is better than a reroll in these cases I think.
I agree they are a win more piece for assassinations.
But in the 3 angelius lists, the rerolls make their AP attack amazing, and if they happen to stand back and shoot, makes them effectly ps14 rather than 12 on their shooting, at very little cost (other than being within 12"). I think the Lylth3 assassination might be really strong with them.
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Post by maximumhippo on Aug 29, 2017 8:50:19 GMT
I've almost 180'd on the ice witches since playing them. I definitely need more reps to be sure but as it is right now I think that the ice witches are a very good utility unit. In the games I've played Ice cage and the sprays were more useful than Puppet Master. I was using them in a Thags2 attrition style list though so what I really want to do is try them out in a more assassination focused build to see if it really pushes it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 8:55:31 GMT
In my opinion the ice cage is a boring spell. Everyone seems to have access to it. Mayby the ability to put a cloud to play would be nice (but with eyeless sight also to strong)
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eauc
Junior Strategist
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Post by eauc on Aug 29, 2017 9:05:51 GMT
One things I didn't see mentionned : spamming ice cage is interesting against effects like admonition/watcher/counter-charge/hyper-aggressive/stumbing-drunk/etc., when you don't have any other way to remove it (so in all legion ?).
Playing BFS + throne, I've started to rely on stationnary quite often to counter those kind of effects. It can be a real game-changer move. Being able to alpha this Imperatus under admonition or this inverter under watcher is really nice.
Hitting with MAG6/7 is not really a problem since we have other DEF debuff in faction to apply first (flare, etc). Also having more than 3 ice cage in a list really helps when you build your plan around a stationnary model, even when you hit the first ice cage on 5+...
IMHO, the main problem with the witches is not the toolbox, but rather that paying 7pts for 1 boxes models with victims stats is too much. The BFS cost 2 pts much but is much more resilient with stealth and 5 boxes each. Those girls look like they'd die from an angry look.
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Post by maximumhippo on Aug 29, 2017 9:14:14 GMT
One things I didn't see mentionned : spamming ice cage is interesting against effects like admonition/watcher/counter-charge/hyper-aggressive/stumbing-drunk/etc., when you don't have any other way to remove it (so in all legion ?). Playing BFS + throne, I've started to rely on stationnary quite often to counter those kind of effects. It can be a real game-changer move. Being able to alpha this Imperatus under admonition or this inverter under watcher is really nice. Hitting with MAG6/7 is not really a problem since we have other DEF debuff in faction to apply first (flare, etc). Also having more than 3 ice cage in a list really helps when you build your plan around a stationnary model, even when you hit the first ice cage on 5+... IMHO, the main problem with the witches is not the toolbox, but rather that paying 7pts for 1 boxes models with victims stats is too much. The BFS cost 2 pts much but is much more resilient with stealth and 5 boxes each. Those girls look like they'd die from an angry look. Most stuff with stumbling drunk is cold immune so..... not so much that. Everything else though. Would you rather they be 5 boxes/7 points or 1 box/5 points?
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 29, 2017 10:03:53 GMT
I'd rather they dropped all the cute tech (snow wreathed and critical on sword) and cost just 6. That simple point would make them much more easy to insert in all my lists, FWIW. At 5 I think they could become way more too spammable and cause big problems in (assassination ?) lists. So they'd need to have only one puppet master instead of 3. Another solution would be to reduce the cost of all our land heavies by 1 in CID (a man can dream). The only important thing is keeping Puppet master, which IMHO is really an awesome Christmas present for the faction. (also ice cage can nullify shield guard ? not always usefull since you'd often be better off just killing/KD the shield guard, but maybe for stuff like flaring a caster with a heavy shield guard nearby... when you don't have much shooting or the shield guard is hard to remove).
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Post by maximumhippo on Aug 29, 2017 10:36:16 GMT
Only two games played, I found Puppet master to be the least useful of their abilities. I prefer this platform of Ice cage to the throne because of the smaller footprint and smaller target.
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Post by DanX on Aug 29, 2017 11:57:04 GMT
Ice Cage is great when you have flying beasts that don't want to get free strikes against them from particular things, though to be honest you need 4 witches (or a throne and a spare member of BFS) ideally, all within 10" of the target - which is a lot of stuff. That first cage is hard to hit with.
With BFS and Throne adventures, I've stationaried to good effect, Stormlances, Tuffalo, many jacks, Diretrolls. Wished I could get the Earthborn troll with it, or colossal. The tricky thing is hitting that first one, after that they have -2 defence so its a lot easier.
I don't think it makes a great deal of difference if they are 6 or 7 points. At 6 points they are more differentiated from the BFS, and for 18 points you can get 9 witches - which is more expensive than hexhunters who cost 15 for 10 At 7 points 6 witches cost nearly the same as 10 hex hunters.
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