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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 31, 2017 12:27:03 GMT
I'm planning on doing a few more test games with the Ice Witches. This is the list I'm currently looking at. The idea is that BFS activates, uses Kiss, lands 1 Ice cage then goes stealth, which is followed by the witches landing the lasst two Ice cages and handing out puppet master to Whoever is going in. I'm also considering trying out an assassination focused Lylyth1 list with 3 Ravagores and 2 units of witches. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0uaDg_aLaLaReKbbbbfUfUbacobrjx[snip] If I may; the concept is spot on. I would like to add another possible use. BFS puts the first cage out. Witches put another two. Then the last witch puppet masters the stationary target. Locking down an important warjack that now looses power up and has the threat of making it's pivotal charge attack roll fail? That's not a chance most will want to take. So now that jack gets no allocation, spends to shake, and will possibly disengage entirely. It entirely depends on if you are trying to get the alpha or prevent one. But it could be just as useful if the situation arises. At least the only time I see the stationary aspect of ice cage useful is when I'm trying to prevent a target from doing something. Not when I'm trying to hit; for that 1 is usually enough to bring the numbers down to where I'd like.
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Post by neutralyze on Aug 31, 2017 13:51:07 GMT
I would like to see the BFS leader lose disbinding for hunters mark.
Have the ice witches lose ice cage and puppet master and give them something that debuff a models in a different way. Perhaps spd or mat, something unique to legion. Then, if they stay at 11 armor give them Defense 13 with force barrier instead. They die way too much to blast damage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 13:58:58 GMT
ice cage is generally better than chiller. the only way that would be good is if it reduced their point cost. and i think i still prefer ice cage even then.
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Post by copperflame on Aug 31, 2017 14:14:01 GMT
Wait... they only have spray6? That sucks - sorry, with such short range getting them into position to get much use out of it would be rare and point cost for little damage on a jack? Slide me to the 'pass' section, lets find something better.
Though this thread is not about BFS - Disbanding sucks. I would love to see something else there to really justify a 9pt character unit. Banishing Ward would be my pick because I think that was the intent of Disbanding was to give some anti-magic tech... but it doesn't help most of the time. This may be considered too powerful but 9pt/squishy/character unit... should be powerful imo. Honestly, anything better would be a welcomed change.
For Ice Witches... I'm elated to hear that devs are willing to have them more toolbox/support rather than what they are currently. And I really like the idea of them dropping concealment and picking up force barrier - that would really go far with their survivability (and fits a little bit of fluff since Searyn has it).
As far as what support suite the Ice Witches could have... What 3 would you guys want to see? Puppet Mater Blizzard Song of Serinity
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Post by DanX on Aug 31, 2017 14:31:26 GMT
Sorry Magic 6, Spray 8
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 31, 2017 14:52:48 GMT
That's funny, I'm of the opposite opinion regarding ice cage/frostbite. I'm less interested in a MAG6 spray when we already have a lot of MAG7 models with the same spray, that are faster (sorceress) or more resilient (throne), meaning you can use it much more easily (spraying stuff implies getting/starting close to said stuff). The main utility in a spray for me is to hit multiple models (I don't forget that ignoring cover or targeting is also nice), but in this case it means if I want/need to debuff the def of the target before to have a good change to hit, I must find a unit-debuff (or zone hit-buff like telemetry), and those are much more rare in our faction than single-target debuff. Or I could get in the back of my targets but with SPD6 and no battle wizard and victims stats, I think I'll have a hard time. And finally, there is absolutely no synergy between those sprays and the rest of the faction, aside from them needing support to work efficiently. So sure, in a pinch you can spray even when you hit on 9s or face ARM20, but "in a pinch" is not what I want to read on the back of my cards. On the other hand, ice cage has the same difficulty to hit with MAG6, but we have a lot of single-target DEF debuff already in faction, so you can easily facilitate the first hit. The DEF debuff in isolation is not really interesting for me, what I really like is the stacking of the debuffs (against warpwolves or cryx jacks or neraphs, if I can flare them then add one or 2 ice cage on top that's really perfect), and the stationnary for all the utility it brings. Before, a plan based on stationnary required to forsake kiss of lilith and not to miss any single hit roll. That's the kind of plan that costs a lot, and I'd really hesitate to make this choice. Now the fact that I can still cast kiss, and/or have another source of ice cage (the throne) in case of a bad roll, really makes those kind of plan much more easy to choose. Like, with BFS/throne/witches, I can activate BFS first to try a ice cage, if I miss another one or stealth if I hit, then kiss, then activate witches to freeze target at MAG~8, and puppet master with any rest. Or activate the witches to puppet throne + BFS, when the throne needs to hunt an important solo, and I need the kiss to hit an important target but rest of unit can't apply ice cage first. Or first apply flare on ennemy heavy, freeze it with witches, leaving BFS or throne free to do important stuff elsewhere, etc. I'm not saying you should always pay the 32pts for the full package, but witches supporting a throne or a BFS already in my list (and they are already in my lists), I can find really appealing. And they can still be usefull by themselves with puppet master if I don't need to stack ice cages. In fact I guess I'm more looking at the witches in combination with the BFS and/or the throne, and not in isolation. The combinations of puppet master/ice cage/kiss between those 3 units look very solid and versatile. Since I started playing the throne post-CID with the BFS, I really appreciated the interactions between the up-to-7 ice cages. And I started to really look at the BFS for ice cage for the first time. I won a few games by freezing an important target to death already. Just like I lost a lot of games by rolling 1 on the ROF of my Seraph, and missing the 9+ required to flare a warcaster -> puppet master FTW ! The spray on the other hand is just more of the same, with no such interaction/saturation effect. I rarely cast the spray on the sorceress, and even on Throne I use spray/eruption equally. Chiller would limit the interaction to the DEF debuff stacking, what we gain in not needing to target (no miss, no arcane vortex, multiple target, etc), we loose in stationary sources. I could live with it I guess (both Rhyas on chiller and puppet master every turn sound kind of good). I find it funny to see that in the same faction, players are really looking at new models with different wishes. Makes you realize it must be hard to design a game to keep everyone happy
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Post by davycannonhound on Aug 31, 2017 15:36:33 GMT
Puplet Master will certainly patch a few holes in Legion. Their spray needs to be bumped up to rng 8, and they need to lose ice cage for something else.
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 31, 2017 16:46:15 GMT
So Wk2: Witches replace Ice Cage and Frostbite for Summon Vortex and Ice Bolt. I personally, would've preferred keeping Ice Cage and Blizzard, but these are generally welcome changes.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 31, 2017 17:31:04 GMT
Do I miss something with Summon vortex and Ice bolt or are they now pure sh*t for their 7pts ? I guess that's what you get for complaining about ice cage and MAG6 sprays
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 31, 2017 17:41:42 GMT
Do I miss something with Summon vortex and Ice bolt or are they now pure sh*t for their 7pts ? I guess that's what you get for complaining about ice cage and MAG6 sprays Since they're MAG6 I'll be generous and call Frostbite vs Ice Bolt a wash due to the +2RNG, but Summon Vortex does give Legion access to a cloud wall outside of Bethayne.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 31, 2017 17:57:49 GMT
it's a very odd change that does make them more viable. But very, very, strange that they would want to give us a 9 model cloud wall. Which, stealth nerf; snow wreathed was removed.
It would give us a completely new utility to play towards board position/control. But still not what I was hoping for. But this I will feel worthwhile testing.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 31, 2017 18:00:07 GMT
Do I miss something with Summon vortex and Ice bolt or are they now pure sh*t for their 7pts ? I guess that's what you get for complaining about ice cage and MAG6 sprays Since they're MAG6 I'll be generous and call Frostbite vs Ice Bolt a wash due to the +2RNG, but Summon Vortex does give Legion access to a cloud wall outside of Bethayne. o.0?? How do you cloud wall with Bethayne? (despoiler is not a cloud effect)
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 31, 2017 18:07:07 GMT
But a cloud wall that goes away when you kill the victim model inside it ?
And on models with SPD6 and no AD ?
(Having played gobbers for quite a long time, they were always quite easy to kill inside their cloud, but at least this didn't remove the cloud)
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 31, 2017 18:09:29 GMT
Since they're MAG6 I'll be generous and call Frostbite vs Ice Bolt a wash due to the +2RNG, but Summon Vortex does give Legion access to a cloud wall outside of Bethayne. o.0?? How do you cloud wall with Bethayne? (despoiler is not a cloud effect) Despoiler is a cloud effect. I guess you could combine it with gobber if you're out of theme because you don't mind playing with 25pts less of models. Personnally I'd rather play one of the Thagrosh with a bunch of shepherd if I wanted to build a reliable cloud wall.
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 31, 2017 18:41:20 GMT
But a cloud wall that goes away when you kill the victim model inside it ? I guess they made them 1box and FA3 for the intent of multiple being taken? Not that I agree or like this train of thought. They are DEF16 which is good until boosted shots get involved.
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