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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 3, 2017 5:45:56 GMT
Oh man, just Khador things.
Trencher mechaniks are too expensive for the 3 models you get and their 4 seperate special actions which are all mutual exclusive is a serious limitation to what they do.
What is insane here is how wound up you guys get about trencher mechaniks while gobber mechaniks are pretty much legitimately better than battle mechaniks in most ways.
And they still aren't taken.
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Post by jonnyboy on Sept 3, 2017 12:44:56 GMT
Oh man, just Khador things. Trencher mechaniks are too expensive for the 3 models you get and their 4 seperate special actions which are all mutual exclusive is a serious limitation to what they do. What is insane here is how wound up you guys get about trencher mechaniks while gobber mechaniks are pretty much legitimately better than battle mechaniks in most ways. And they still aren't taken. I use gobber mechaniks in my out of theme butcher list!
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 3, 2017 13:16:39 GMT
Oh man, just Khador things. Trencher mechaniks are too expensive for the 3 models you get and their 4 seperate special actions which are all mutual exclusive is a serious limitation to what they do. What is insane here is how wound up you guys get about trencher mechaniks while gobber mechaniks are pretty much legitimately better than battle mechaniks in most ways. And they still aren't taken. I use gobber mechaniks in my out of theme butcher list! I'm talking about Cygnaran Gobber Mechaniks, not the Tinkerer. Get a Battle Mage, make his combat stats worse, give him +1 SPD and Def 14. Same points. lololol. If anything shows this thread to be the reactionary whining that it is, it would be that.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 3, 2017 14:12:22 GMT
octaviusmaximus, I don't know if you read the whole thread but the initial complaint was based on misreading the unit price due to a blurry photo. Once that was cleared up there was a lot less "whining" about them being too good and a lot more of a balanced discussion about whether they were worth their points or not.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 3, 2017 14:32:40 GMT
And they still aren't taken. Because Cygnarians are pretty Darn Entitled and think backwards in my opinion. Mechanics that could also be used on the battlefield in-between repairing (And because they have the Trencher Keyword benefit from all trencher benefits), and are more survivable yet also still cheap are really great.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 3, 2017 20:39:36 GMT
And they still aren't taken. Because Cygnarians are pretty Darn Entitled and think backwards in my opinion. Mechanics that could also be used on the battlefield in-between repairing (And because they have the Trencher Keyword benefit from all trencher benefits), and are more survivable yet also still cheap are really great. Mechaniks who are worse at repairing and trade that for some dinky offence are meh. Call it entitlement if you want, but expensive mechaniks are ok. I mean, call it entitlement, but only in the Khador forums do I see players assuming that 'pp doesn't love them' because of some perceived slight.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 3, 2017 20:54:34 GMT
Mechaniks who are worse at repairing and trade that for some dinky offence are meh. Call it entitlement if you want Yup I will. I guess because you guys don't regularly use your field mechanics anyways, but it's often enough just a bunch of waiting around for a Jack to get damaged, or hoping to get into position. Just a good gun and good offenses gives a massive amount of utility. And even if for say I don't have a turn to shoot at something, I can become very defensive. I mean Cygnar takes its speed 6 mechanics for granted already. Its not DINKY offenses, Its GOOD offenses but because Cygnar is so spoiled unless its killing the enemy from the inside of your bag its not good enough. You lose 1d3 points of repair in exchange for a crapton of other utility instead. Being Trenchers means they can repair for a distance of 8 Inches with Siege 2, can become rat 7 with their leader guy, the Trencher dog gives them Dodge, on top of having Toughness and the possibility of getting feign death. You literally take all that for granted.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 3, 2017 22:34:45 GMT
Mechaniks who are worse at repairing and trade that for some dinky offence are meh. Call it entitlement if you want Yup I will. I guess because you guys don't regularly use your field mechanics anyways, but it's often enough just a bunch of waiting around for a Jack to get damaged, or hoping to get into position. Just a good gun and good offenses gives a massive amount of utility. And even if for say I don't have a turn to shoot at something, I can become very defensive. I mean Cygnar takes its speed 6 mechanics for granted already. Its not DINKY offenses, Its GOOD offenses but because Cygnar is so spoiled unless its killing the enemy from the inside of your bag its not good enough. You lose 1d3 points of repair in exchange for a crapton of other utility instead. Being Trenchers means they can repair for a distance of 8 Inches with Siege 2, can become rat 7 with their leader guy, the Trencher dog gives them Dodge, on top of having Toughness and the possibility of getting feign death. You literally take all that for granted. Uhh, 5 points means we lose 3d3 repair, not 1d3. Check yo facts. If they have dug in they haven't repaired or shot. If they shot they haven't dug in or repaired. If they repaired they haven't dug in or shot. Siege 2 repairing within 8" sounds like they aren't shooting and getting their value. Getting +1 to hit from Finn means they aren't repairing and getting their value because they are going to die because they aren't dug in most likely. The trench dog gives them dodge... Within 3" of it and then they lose dig in. Hitch gives them feign death if he does that for noone else. "Cygnar players are so entitled that they won't use the bad tactics I say they should". Cmon, man, assume your opponents are competent and they aren't death starring their worst unit. Oh and BTW, you missed the feat. Trench mechaniks can repair up to 11" away with siege 2s feat. OPOPOPOP
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 3, 2017 22:53:20 GMT
Uhh, 5 points means we lose 3d3 repair, not 1d3. Check yo facts. You are indeed correct. I'm sorry, that is a pretty considerable loss in repair functionality. Yes, that is what having choices means. Because a regular mechanic in the case that it's not repairing is doing NOTHING. It's occupying space and hoping to keep up and is trying not to die from blasts or ranged attacks. I guess you also hate: Having multiple spells! Having Multiple abilities! Having Different Ammo Types! Il be happy to take all those away from Cygnar so the nasty choices and abilities won't bug you anymore.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 4, 2017 1:20:39 GMT
Uhh, 5 points means we lose 3d3 repair, not 1d3. Check yo facts. You are indeed correct. I'm sorry, that is a pretty considerable loss in repair functionality. Yes, that is what having choices means. Because a regular mechanic in the case that it's not repairing is doing NOTHING. It's occupying space and hoping to keep up and is trying not to die from blasts or ranged attacks. I guess you also hate: Having multiple spells! Having Multiple abilities! Having Different Ammo Types! Il be happy to take all those away from Cygnar so the nasty choices and abilities won't bug you anymore. I don't think you understand. Having 5 options, paying for 5 options and only having 1 or 2 be ever meaningful is actually a bad thing. Being an expensive tool that is only marginally better in some situations is generally worse than having a cheap one. If sabotage or their guns were meaningfully strong enough to make up for how expensive they are, then I would agree they are great. But sabotage being nerfed to only d3 on them and their guns being only ok and generally sacrificing their defensive tech are not worth the expense over bringing more regular mechaniks. Feel free to try them in a game. They are ok, but not great
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 4, 2017 1:24:54 GMT
I don't think you understand. Having 5 options, paying for 5 options and only having 1 or 2 be ever meaningful is actually a bad thing. Being an expensive tool that is only marginally better in some situations is generally worse than having a cheap one. Well, that's a decent argument I just see all the options as pretty good. I just literally can think of exact cases where each one of those examples would have been brilliant with my Battle Mechanics, but I never had the option (And this isn't a case of Khadoran Only Buffs). It's not amazing, but id put it down as a solid GOOD. And again good is never enough for Cygnar.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 4, 2017 1:43:12 GMT
I don't think you understand. Having 5 options, paying for 5 options and only having 1 or 2 be ever meaningful is actually a bad thing. Being an expensive tool that is only marginally better in some situations is generally worse than having a cheap one. Well, that's a decent argument I just see all the options as pretty good. I just literally can think of exact cases where each one of those examples would have been brilliant with my Battle Mechanics, but I never had the option (And this isn't a case of Khadoran Only Buffs). It's not amazing, but id put it down as a solid GOOD. And again good is never enough for Cygnar. D3 damage by walking into base to base with an enemy jack with no healing is bad. Gremlin swarms (faster, harder to kill, generally free) do d3+3. Why the nerf? The guns are rat 6 Pow 10 pop guns. That's OK at best with range 10". Dig in is great, but it can only be done while advancing which means that early game it provides no benefit due to the need to claim table space. So when you are purchasing mechaniks, you could take either a cheaper or equivalent point unit that does more of their primary purpose in either case in order to gain an occasional side benefit which generally comes into play during non optimal time during a game. Also, heavy metal gains repo for mechaniks, which seems great for gobber mechaniks but not great for trencher mechaniks who lose dig in if they repo. Like I said, give something like it a try and you'll quickly see that most of the utility brought is useless. The main reason to bring trencher mechaniks is to use grenadiers outside of gravediggers (who doesn't really need it) and the jury is still out whether that overlapping synergy is worth the points.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 4, 2017 2:07:29 GMT
D3 damage by walking into base to base with an enemy jack with no healing is bad. With no Healing? Huh? And sure its not killer, but it ignores every piece of armor. Abilities like these are great finishers against damaged stuff. Against a Khadoran Heavy or something with a Shield, thats akin to a Pow 12 Charge attack. "So an X whos entire job is to do Y gets to do Y primarily, but something that gets to do Y as a bonus doesn't do it as well? SIMPLY OUTRAGEOUS!" OK for Cygnar, respectable to good for other factions. Again they are not frontline stuff, but I have had times where just an extra shot, or some extra threat from mechanics left behind made them worthwhile. Literally, everything you spit on I find great (And has had Tangible moments when I wish it could have been). Which to me speaks of entitlement. I had mechanics trailing behind a jack. I didn't need to repair or to run. I could have Dug in and then the Wold would not have been able to spray them all to death with a spell from Baldur 2. I got ambushed by Mechanithralls. Since I could shoot them from a distance, meant more sucker Targets for Malakov. I needed to finish off a badly damaged Jack with Shield Gaurd but high armor and my mechanics where literally the only thing left.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 4, 2017 3:14:44 GMT
D3 damage by walking into base to base with an enemy jack with no healing is bad. With no Healing? Huh? And sure its not killer, but it ignores every piece of armor. Abilities like these are great finishers against damaged stuff. Against a Khadoran Heavy or something with a Shield, thats akin to a Pow 12 Charge attack. "So an X whos entire job is to do Y gets to do Y primarily, but something that gets to do Y as a bonus doesn't do it as well? SIMPLY OUTRAGEOUS!" OK for Cygnar, respectable to good for other factions. Again they are not frontline stuff, but I have had times where just an extra shot, or some extra threat from mechanics left behind made them worthwhile. Literally, everything you spit on I find great (And has had Tangible moments when I wish it could have been). Which to me speaks of entitlement. I had mechanics trailing behind a jack. I didn't need to repair or to run. I could have Dug in and then the Wold would not have been able to spray them all to death with a spell from Baldur 2. I got ambushed by Mechanithralls. Since I could shoot them from a distance, meant more sucker Targets for Malakov. I needed to finish off a badly damaged Jack with Shield Gaurd but high armor and my mechanics where literally the only thing left. We're your mechaniks in walking range of that jack? Did they have nothing they needed to repair? You can cognitive bias your way through every scenario where the limited usefulness of mechaniks shines through. On the table that just isn't worth the cost. Are you expecting your 3 shots to stop a ambushing unit of Mechanithralls? Did they forget to shield guard with their brute Thrall's to make the shots less effective? I want every piece in the game to be good and worth their cost. I am. Not convinced that trencher mechaniks are because their cost to repair ratio pretty terrible.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 4, 2017 3:16:18 GMT
Girls, girls, your factions have different playstyles and focuses now quiet before I get the mod cane. Not specifically you too but some of the posts earlier in the thread.
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