|
Post by jonnyboy on Aug 19, 2017 20:44:19 GMT
Comparable to a 7 point unit? Come on guys. WGRC are 8 points, 6 models, CRA, 14" range, practiced maneuvers. They aren't comparable here. They have tough and dig in.
And comparing them to kossite woodsman is not fair. For one you are comparing a CID model to a model that is known to been way over costed/underperforming. While largely discounting ambush and prowl.
And a poor comparison to the battle mechanics. Who is getting into melee with mechanics? They have a decent gun, not a big deal, might be marginally useful. You did not take into factor a equally costed BM unit has double the size and access to reposition.
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 19, 2017 20:53:31 GMT
7 points is where combat units start. I think even 5 is overpriced. Trenchers cost 1.6 pt per model and the mechanics are worse than trenchers in terms of combat. They should be 4.
|
|
|
Post by dazzla on Aug 19, 2017 23:53:20 GMT
It should be noted if I read their card right that diging in is an action so they can't dig and shoot. They can dig. At five points I am off my ledge. But at three, again, I figure you dig them in (one being in a zone for contesting ....because) and then the other three withing 6 inches of where they might need to go. At DEF 17 immune to blast damage that is a LOT more survivable than ours....and you really ONLY need 1 or 2 to get back the systems that you need. Yeah. At 3 points, in comparison to a minimum unit of BMs with roughly the same melee output (3x MAT 6 vs 4x MAT 5) you have: - +1 DEF, +1 _ARM, and Tough, in exchange for one fewer body (so better defense)
- Ranged attack at 10/10 with RAT 6
- Dig In
- Strip
As it is, they're still pretty impressive at 5 points. Compare to the Retribution Arcanists:
- Better defense per model (+1 ARM, Tough, Dig In)
- Closely comparable ranged attack per model (-2 POW, +2 RNG, +1 accuracy, no critical effect
- Closely comparable melee output per model (+1 MAT, -1 P+S, Strip)
- Fewer points per model (meaning that all three of the above are advantages).
- Closely comparable repair abilities per point.
Ouch. For that matter, their overall combat abilities are pretty comparable to a lot of 7 point 3-person units. It wouldn't be hard to make the case that they're pretty much worth their points on combat ability alone, and then have repair and Trencher synergies on top of that. Archanists also have empower, can give +2 to melee damage rolls and also their repair is 6d (for 2 points, vs d3 for 1.6points). Given the primary purpose is jack support, I would argue that archanists are more useful and I would prefer them over the trencher mechanics.
|
|
|
Post by tjhairball on Aug 20, 2017 2:49:42 GMT
Comparable to a 7 point unit? Come on guys. I'm not saying that they're necessarily worth 7 points, but at 5 points, they compare pretty impressively with those units. Here's a set of 7 point 3 man units. Greylords Ternion, Tactical Arcanist Corps, Stormsmith Grenadiers, Satyxis Gunslingers, House Shyeel Arcanists. All Warmachine 3 man single-wound units. Unit | Trench Mechs! | H.S. Arcanists | SS Grenadiers | GLT | TAC | Satyxis Gun. | Durability | 13/13 +Tough+Dig In | 13/12 +Force | 13/11 +Force+Im. | 13/13 +Blizzard | 11/16 +R.Flame+Im +Smoke | 14/12 | Melee output | 8 @ MAT 6 + Sabotage | 9 @ MAT 5 | 7 @ MAT 5 | 10 @ MAT 5 | 13 @ MAT 6 +Flame Burst | 8 @ MAT 6 + crit + Gunfighter | Ranged output | 10/10 @ RAT 6 | 8/12 @ MA 5 +Crit | 6/13 @ RAT 6 AOE 3+effects | 8/12 @ MA 7 Spray | 10/13 @ MA 7 AOE 3, Crit | 2x10/10 @ RAT 6 +effects | Additional utility | Repair d3
| Repair d3+1 Empower |
| Ice Cage |
| | Misc | Trencher keyword |
|
| Greylord keyword | Only SPD 4 |
|
Now, I will grant, they would look a bit lackluster as a 7 point unit - but they are a 5 point unit. As a 5 point unit... well, they're basically Trenchers. They have a little less offense than regular Trencher Infantry, except against enemy warjacks, and pick up the Repair ability for utility.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Aug 20, 2017 5:19:48 GMT
Comparable to a 7 point unit? Come on guys. I'm not saying that they're necessarily worth 7 points, but at 5 points, they compare pretty impressively with those units. Here's a set of 7 point 3 man units. Greylords Ternion, Tactical Arcanist Corps, Stormsmith Grenadiers, Satyxis Gunslingers, House Shyeel Arcanists. All Warmachine 3 man single-wound units. Unit | Trench Mechs! | H.S. Arcanists | SS Grenadiers | GLT | TAC | Satyxis Gun. | Durability | 13/13 +Tough+Dig In | 13/12 +Force | 13/11 +Force+Im. | 13/13 +Blizzard | 11/16 +R.Flame+Im +Smoke | 14/12 | Melee output | 8 @ MAT 6 + Sabotage | 9 @ MAT 5 | 7 @ MAT 5 | 10 @ MAT 5 | 13 @ MAT 6 +Flame Burst | 8 @ MAT 6 + crit + Gunfighter | Ranged output | 10/10 @ RAT 6 | 8/12 @ MA 5 +Crit | 6/13 @ RAT 6 AOE 3+effects | 8/12 @ MA 7 Spray | 10/13 @ MA 7 AOE 3, Crit | 2x10/10 @ RAT 6 +effects | Additional utility | Repair d3
| Repair d3+1 Empower |
| Ice Cage |
|
| Misc | Trencher keyword |
|
| Greylord keyword | Only SPD 4 |
|
Now, I will grant, they would look a bit lackluster as a 7 point unit - but they are a 5 point unit. As a 5 point unit... well, they're basically Trenchers. They have a little less offense than regular Trencher Infantry, except against enemy warjacks, and pick up the Repair ability for utility. 5 points is not even close to being a good price for 3 basic POW10s at standard military rifle range. Adding Dig In doesn't change that. Combat wise they cost as much per model as regular Trencher Infantry in a min unit, but have a worse gun and worse melee, without the utility features. As for those 7 point units, all of those are a different type of utility unit and crucially, all of the examples listed provide something that Khador players often really want - magic attacks, which is something points are paid for.
|
|
|
Post by jonnyboy on Aug 20, 2017 6:31:21 GMT
I agree with borderprince. The only thing that i see possibly skewing the trencher mechanics towards a price increase is sabotage. To me that is way more of strength than their guns or survivability.
|
|
|
Post by cplmustard on Aug 20, 2017 15:37:13 GMT
Sabotage is okay, but it's a ⭐action, and base to base, so your jacks have to be within 6" of a trencher mech to be in danger. I'm not too concerned about these guys, if anything makes me jealous it's the trencher commando ua, if only aks had something like minifeat prey
|
|
|
Post by tjhairball on Aug 20, 2017 15:52:25 GMT
"Worse" being -1 POW and not having Assault + Brutal Charge. OTOH, against warjacks, they can catch back up with Sabotage. The extra POW is of limited relevance in the first place against the more lightly armored half of small-based infantry. So while they're worse in combat, they're not worse in combat by very much on a basic level (from a Khadoran perspective, they're worse at fighting MOW and Iron Fangs).
What would you get with a penny packet of three non-Trencher grunts with ranged weapons at regular price? Small units are better for scenario but worse for targeted buff economy, which is a wash.
Steelheads: 4 points (comparable offense, worse durability) Sea Dogs: 4 points (worse offense at range, better offense at melee except against warjacks, worse durability) Idrians: 4.5 points (comparable ranged offense, better melee offense except against warjacks, worse durability, more mobility) Winter Guard riflemen: 4.5 points (better ranged offense, worse melee offense, worse durability) High Shields: 5 points (comparable offense, less mobility) Assault Kommandos: 5 points (better offense) Sea Dog riflemen WAs: 6 points (better ranged offense, better offense at melee except against warjacks, worse durability) Widowmakers: 6 points (significantly better ranged offense, significantly worse melee, worse durability, more mobility)
So yes, they may be ever so slightly worse at combat (occasionally better, but usually worse) than the 5 point packet of Trenchers, but anything you'd get for less than 5 points by cramming together generic shooting grunts is hard to describe as superior; outside of Cygnar, cheap good shooting is not common. 3 man packets of AKs and High Shields are interesting, because they have the same main weapon (10/10 carbine) ... and either significantly better or significantly worse durability, depending on what you're facing (Dig In is really nice, Tough is none too shabby).
5 points is pretty much the best-fit integer price for a unit with everything on their stat card except the Repair line. At 4 points, they would qualify as a great deal for a basic penny-packet combat unit; at 6 points, they would look overpriced. If we went to half-integers, you might slot them in at 4.5 points.
And, of course, having Repair is worth something significant. So at 5 points, they're a pretty good deal. Repair is really useful when it comes into play, and if it doesn't, you have a basic combat unit that can pretty much pull its weight - nothing amazing, but not completely terrible.
Would I be happy to slap them in my army in place of, say, a max unit of Battle Mechaniks? Probably quite frequently, and if they had the Winter Guard keyword instead of the Trencher keyword, it would be nice to count those points towards getting free stuff, yeah? The Battle Mechaniks may be really good at the one thing they do (repair lots of boxes) but unless I'm trailing them behind a colossal, it's hard to take full advantage of their ability.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 20, 2017 15:53:41 GMT
Well, the cygnar forums don't seem too impressed with them right now overall. Probably just a "grass is always greener on the other side" (pretty sure I used to have a t-shirt with that slogan...) thing.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 20, 2017 16:10:47 GMT
Honestly Cygnars really spoiled for choice.
Im not jelous of thes guys, but I would take them in Khador in a heartbeat. I really like mechanics, and they have saved my butt so many times by being sacrificial pawns or just charging good targets.
If my mechanics could also shoot (with solid RAT), had speed 6 and could also have cover on a whim, they would be buttsavers x10
Cygnar just wont be happy until every one if their options can oneshot a jack from the other table.
Kinda the oppsite of trolls in a way.
|
|
|
Post by tjhairball on Aug 20, 2017 16:35:22 GMT
Well, the cygnar forums don't seem too impressed with them right now overall. Probably just a "grass is always greener on the other side" (pretty sure I used to have a t-shirt with that slogan...) thing. I popped over there and noticed someone claim that they were more expensive per point than Trencher Infantry / Trencher Commandos, which is just plain false - they're the same price per model as the min unit, which is to say within rounding of the efficiency of the max unit (still no less than 4.5 points to scale down a max unit). At less than 5 points, I think they would be pretty amazing. At 5 points, they're solid, but there are a lot of solid Trencher options that are slightly better at combat per point, so the only reason for Cygnar players to take them over other Trenchers is for the Repair feature. You could also take them over Field Mechaniks to have a more reliably useful little unit that still offers the Repair option, but Field Mechaniks aren't exactly popular. Then, of course, there's Arlan Strangeways ... who would be a solid 4 point solo on his own and then has Repair as an option for when you need it. Basically, Trenchers are a complete minifaction now (7 units, 7 solos). If I were a Cygnar player, I wouldn't be really excited about them except to round out a Gravediggers list a bit - there's already a really useful 4 point option for "Repairs but also stays useful when not needed to use Repair," there's already a lot of excellent-value basic ranged infantry, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 20, 2017 17:49:00 GMT
Yeah, I think that's probably it; they are "good", but the faction has better / more important choices, so they may have a place but they probably aren't really going to push Cygnar's power levels up?
That actually sounds like a decently balanced unit if true. Sure, I'd love SPD 6 mechanics with guns in Khador, but I'll live.
By the way, how important are mechanics in Cygnar anyway? Like, how often do Cygnar jack get crippled but not destroyed? I always hear people disparage Darius' feat because they say jacks tend to get one-rounded and all that.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Aug 20, 2017 18:08:13 GMT
Yeah, I think that's probably it; they are "good", but the faction has better / more important choices, so they may have a place but they probably aren't really going to push Cygnar's power levels up? That actually sounds like a decently balanced unit if true. Sure, I'd love SPD 6 mechanics with guns in Khador, but I'll live. By the way, how important are mechanics in Cygnar anyway? Like, how often do Cygnar jack get crippled but not destroyed? I always hear people disparage Darius' feat because they say jacks tend to get one-rounded and all that. Again, at 5 points very much off my ledge. It was hard as heck to read in the blurried state on Chain attack. Cygnar jacks DO get crippled. PLayed a game yesterday with my Vlad2 list and the Shocktroopers went into a Reliant and Hurricane. The fact that gobbers were around allowed the arc node to be healed up and the reliant to hammer again.
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 20, 2017 22:46:38 GMT
Yeah, I think that's probably it; they are "good", but the faction has better / more important choices, so they may have a place but they probably aren't really going to push Cygnar's power levels up? That actually sounds like a decently balanced unit if true. Sure, I'd love SPD 6 mechanics with guns in Khador, but I'll live. By the way, how important are mechanics in Cygnar anyway? Like, how often do Cygnar jack get crippled but not destroyed? I always hear people disparage Darius' feat because they say jacks tend to get one-rounded and all that. The reason why Cygnar jacks get one-rounded when Darius is on the board is because of Darius' feat, not because of any deficiency in their design. If you leave 2+ jacks on the board damaged but not destroyed after a turn or two of abuse when going up against Darius you are practically begging to have the feat popped and have fresh warjacks jammed in your face. The Half Jacks sitting behind a heavy warjack are pretty much little tokens reminding the other player to finish the job. That, and Cygnar players like to complain anyways...
|
|
|
Post by tapecrawler on Aug 20, 2017 22:53:42 GMT
The difference with these Trencher mechanics is they are a unit I would take every opportunity I got if I was playing Cygnar. Put Snipe on them while dug in and you have a unit that has RAT 6 Range 14 does not suffer blast damage and is DEF 17 against ranged attacks. If you stick one or two dug in Grenadiers B2B with them then each Grenadier has RAT 6, ROF 3, AOE 3, POW 13 shots and can be repaired easily by the B2B mechanics on the off chance they are hit. It's a great synergy to me and costs 14 points for the combo. So it's the same cost as a Destroyer only you have 3 RAT 6, AOE 3, POW 13 shots and 3 RAT 6, POW 10 shots. That sure seems like quite a bargain.
|
|