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Post by pangurban on Aug 7, 2017 2:05:21 GMT
And begs the question why it was a good idea to give them even better stuff before nerfing the Lances... They weren't? They had their damage nerfed and electroleap pulled off their guns and their guns lost accuracy. Them = Cygnar. Not Lances. Cygnar got Heavy Metal and Caine3. With Caine3 at least I can accept that was an honest mistake at least.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 7, 2017 2:11:16 GMT
So now -1 RAT, -2 POW and losing E-Leap is "the most lightest of nerfs"? On a ranged attack. What I also consider is that unless the matchup is really counter a Stormlance can survive for a round or two in melee. Higher Base POW means that it can continue to be a harsher presence even if engaged in melee. Haley 1 was stupidly nerfed but even she wasn't nerfed as hard has other factions stuff have been "Toned Down"
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 7, 2017 2:27:49 GMT
Let's take a look at some numbers for this tournament in Gothenburg, Sweden:
Total number of players listed: 52
Number of players by faction: Cygnar: 13 (25%) - (I blame the King of Sweden Carl XVI for this over-representation.) Cryx: 7 (13.5%) Khador: 6 (9.6%) Protectorate of Menoth: 4 (7.7%) Minions: 4 (7.7%) Mercenaries: 3 (5.8%) Convergence of Cyriss: 3 (5.8%) Skorne: 3 (5.8%) Null (None listed): 3 (5.8%) Trollkin: 2 (3.8%) Circle of Orboros: 2 (3.8%) Legion of Everblight: 2 (3.8%) Retribution of Scyrah: 0 (0.0%) Grymkin: 0 (0.0%)
There is a disproportionate representation of factions among the players towards Cygnar. Until there is supporting evidence, like what all of the army lists were for these 13 players or personal testimony from them, the only explanation is whatever the little voices in your head tell you. I personally think that the Swedish royal family's official endorsement of Cygnar, being a like-minded monarchy and all of that stuff, blah, blah, blah, is a big reason why there were so many Cygnar armies in that tournament. (Hey, don't you go confusing this argument with "facts" and "logic" - I know I'm right!)
Beyond that the skewed initial numbers and small sample size are *somewhat* reflected in the end results, but the fact that Cygnar's and Cryx's representation in the final 16 more than doubled on a percentage basis is... unusual. I personally wouldn't draw any significant conclusions out of just this tournament simply because of the small sample size. I would want to see a lot more tournaments with a lot more discrete players (as opposed to the same players over and over) before drawing any conclusions beyond interference from European monarchies. After all:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 7, 2017 2:28:44 GMT
This is not what's happening in my area at all. Though we don't have much Cryx. But despite having a lot of Cygnar it isn't that strong. I have a theory that where there are more Cryx people it's indeed very oppressive and Cygnar is one of the better factions against it so Cygnar placings are mostly result of Cryx being back as the meta boogeyman. In my experience a lot of people play Cryx, Grymkin, and Minions because they're actually fun to play...
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 7, 2017 2:55:34 GMT
This is not what's happening in my area at all. Though we don't have much Cryx. But despite having a lot of Cygnar it isn't that strong. I have a theory that where there are more Cryx people it's indeed very oppressive and Cygnar is one of the better factions against it so Cygnar placings are mostly result of Cryx being back as the meta boogeyman. In my experience a lot of people play Cryx, Grymkin, and Minions because they're actually fun to play... In my experience people play any faction because they are fun to play.
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 7, 2017 3:35:32 GMT
In my experience a lot of people play Cryx, Grymkin, and Minions because they're actually fun to play... In my experience people play any faction because they are fun to play. Rewrite: Have multiple viable ways to play so they are more fun.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 7, 2017 3:38:31 GMT
In my experience people play any faction because they are fun to play. Rewrite: Have multiple viable ways to play so they are more fun. Again, they play those because they are fun to play.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 7, 2017 3:59:06 GMT
Rewrite: Have multiple viable ways to play so they are more fun. Again, they play those because they are fun to play. WAIT, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING FUN?!?! *looks at miniatures bag with the wide eyes of a betrayed man*
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Aug 7, 2017 4:28:39 GMT
Makes you wonder if they win more events because their better OR because they have more people playing them. More people playing them should actually make their placing worse than you'd expect based on their popularity, due to people having more experience against them and teching against them more than other factions.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 7, 2017 6:40:50 GMT
Makes you wonder if they win more events because their better OR because they have more people playing them. More people playing them should actually make their placing worse than you'd expect based on their popularity, due to people having more experience against them and teching against them more than other factions. Nah, people don't tech against popular factions, otherwise cygnar would have been teched against in mid mk 2 where cygnar was at a low point. They tech against either: 1.What is talked about most in the game. 2. People that they know will show up to this tournament.
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Post by garou on Aug 7, 2017 6:52:10 GMT
Let's take a look at some numbers for this tournament in Gothenburg, Sweden: Total number of players listed: 52 Number of players by faction: Cygnar: 13 (25%) - (I blame the King of Sweden Carl XVI for this over-representation.) Cryx: 7 (13.5%) Khador: 6 (9.6%) Protectorate of Menoth: 4 (7.7%) Minions: 4 (7.7%) Mercenaries: 3 (5.8%) Convergence of Cyriss: 3 (5.8%) Skorne: 3 (5.8%) Null (None listed): 3 (5.8%) Trollkin: 2 (3.8%) Circle of Orboros: 2 (3.8%) Legion of Everblight: 2 (3.8%) Retribution of Scyrah: 0 (0.0%) Grymkin: 0 (0.0%) There is a disproportionate representation of factions among the players towards Cygnar. Until there is supporting evidence, like what all of the army lists were for these 13 players or personal testimony from them, the only explanation is whatever the little voices in your head tell you. I personally think that the Swedish royal family's official endorsement of Cygnar, being a like-minded monarchy and all of that stuff, blah, blah, blah, is a big reason why there were so many Cygnar armies in that tournament. (Hey, don't you go confusing this argument with "facts" and "logic" - I know I'm right!) Beyond that the skewed initial numbers and small sample size are *somewhat* reflected in the end results, but the fact that Cygnar's and Cryx's representation in the final 16 more than doubled on a percentage basis is... unusual. I personally wouldn't draw any significant conclusions out of just this tournament simply because of the small sample size. I would want to see a lot more tournaments with a lot more discrete players (as opposed to the same players over and over) before drawing any conclusions beyond interference from European monarchies. After all: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Your number are way off. For example there was a Ret player in the championship finals, where did he go in your summary? Looks like you just counted players in one of the qualifiers.
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Post by garou on Aug 7, 2017 7:05:33 GMT
More people playing them should actually make their placing worse than you'd expect based on their popularity, due to people having more experience against them and teching against them more than other factions. Nah, people don't tech against popular factions, otherwise cygnar would have been teched against in mid mk 2 where cygnar was at a low point. They tech against either: 1.What is talked about most in the game. 2. People that they know will show up to this tournament. In this case many did tech for Cygnar. But the more popular option is 'if you can't beat them join them'. Everyone knew what was going to dominate this tournament, cryx and cygnar, that was not news to anyone. Everyone did their best to prepare for it. But this is still the result. A friend of mine didn't like his chances so he borrowed 2 lists of CoC to even stand a chance. So don't try to brush aside peoples effort to actually counter cryx and cygnar cause they do. Also, don't try to pin this all on the cavalry. That is just misleading trying to make it look like a minor nerf to them will fix anything. Cygnar just got handed one of the best, if not the best, battle engine of them all and that more than makes up for that nerf.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 7, 2017 8:17:18 GMT
More people playing them should actually make their placing worse than you'd expect based on their popularity, due to people having more experience against them and teching against them more than other factions. Nah, people don't tech against popular factions, otherwise cygnar would have been teched against in mid mk 2 where cygnar was at a low point. They tech against either: 1.What is talked about most in the game. 2. People that they know will show up to this tournament. misleading statement. 1. If people know that a faction is popular, stands to reason that they 'know' it's going to show up at the tournament (unless we're talking a very small meta, where you literally know what everyone plays and what they will bring.) 2. People don't necessarily buy into the strongest factions, but if they own multiple factions, they sure as hell consider which one is 'strongest' when they're considering going to a tournament. Thus, there's a correlation between 'most popular' and 'strongest' and thus 'most likely to be seen at a tournament. 3. 'what is talked about most' is a nonsense criteria. If by 'talked about,' you mean 'meta bogeymen' then yeah, people tech against that, because they lose if they don't. and that is ALSO a hallmark of a top-tier faction - having meta-warping lists that require specific tech to play into at even 50%.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 7, 2017 9:21:35 GMT
You have to feel it's reached critical mass at this point. Even the US social media has caught on to the fact that if you're not playing Cygnar or Cryx, it's a waste of time. When it was just a European problem it could get ignore, but Lock N Load was a bit of a kick in the teeth or PP.
PP have asked us to figure it out for ourselves, but haley has been a problem for an entire year in Europe and if anything the gap is widening. I expect them to act, probably straight after WTC. I'm expecting Cygnar and Cryx to make up a large portion of the field. We're talking 30% ish
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 7, 2017 9:28:43 GMT
Are we back to needing more data?
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