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Post by Morganstern on Jul 19, 2017 13:12:51 GMT
Let me start by saying that when I started playing Warmachine in 2011 one of the things that I was told was that it was a lot cheaper than 40k and fantasy and required far less models to play with. So I bought a Cryx Battlebox and enough stuff to field a 25pt army. Not long after that I found that 25pts wasn't enough, so I bought more stuff. Then I found most people played at 50pts, so I bought more stuff. Then I found that 1 list wouldn't cut it, so I bought more stuff, and so on. I imagine a lot of you will find this familiar
Now lets now jump forward 6 years. A new edition has drooped, theme forces have been pushed and power levels have changed and lo and behold I've bought more stuff. So recently Dark Host has dropped for Cryx so I thought I'd buy a Wraith Engine and some Bane Knights to add to my army. When I priced this from my LGS that offers a 10% discount I found it would set me back £125.
I keep finding that whenever I look at the price of PPs models the cost is so much higher tha GWs for models that are just inferior in quality. I am very worried that along with people being put off by the MK3 launch clusterFiretruck, they will also be put off by the prices. Most units now cost at least £40.
I wonder if other people are being put off by the price of things.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 19, 2017 13:20:29 GMT
Some people inevitably will be, however miniature gaming in general is a pretty expensive niche hobby. GW made no bones about the fact that their models cost a lot of money, and that their target audience was people with disposable income, I would not blame PP if they felt the same.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 19, 2017 13:24:59 GMT
GW is a British company. PP is an American company: since 2011 the pound lost about 20% value vs the US dollar. I'm not saying PP models are cheap, but currency fluctuation is a thing.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 19, 2017 13:27:39 GMT
GW is a British company. PP is an American company: since 2011 the pound lost about 20% value vs the US dollar. I'm not saying PP models are cheap, but currency fluctuation is a thing. Quoted for truth. We saw the same thing happen in Canada and it had a noticeable difference between GW and all american companies' prices for miniatures.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 19, 2017 13:33:29 GMT
People do need stop telling new players that getting into WMH is cheap. It absolutely isn't. It is not wise to tell them they can start playing the game for a $40 investment (cost of a battlebox). Becayse they buy it, and then look around at everyone playing 75 point armies.
If a player wants a miniatures game that sits better with their wallet (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that), then there are other games to look at. Guildball is great for that. You spend ~$200, and you have your whole faction and all necessary accessories.
WMH is not a budget game, and should not be sold as such. You pitch it using its strong and balanced ruleset (it is very well balanced, even with a few outliers), capacity for a competitive mindset, and cool lore.
One thing that does irritate me is the new Trencher Core box. You can purchase everything in the box indidually for $5 less. (Unless there is something more special than a Trencher leaflet inside).
I very much hope that Company of Iron is well balanced. That is a game that can be pitched as affordable. And if the player happens to see some WMH going on, I can tell them that they can play a larger scale fight with further investment if they want to.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 19, 2017 13:39:18 GMT
PP certainly feels very expensive for me. And not just subjectively, their product is just more expensive than similar products even by GW (which I had considered expesnive in the past) while being often of dubious quality and not particularly pretty.
I find myself using more and more GW models as substitutes in my WM&H games because they fill the same role, are WYSIWYG sometimes with only a little conversion job, are FAR easier to assemble while looking great and being often half the price (or even less) than their clunky, ugly PP counterparts.
I have a PoM battle engine for half price thread in the painting section (in my online store the GW model I used cost 127PLN(Polish currency) compared to 278PLN for an actual PP Vessel!) and currently I am finishing 5 Bane Riders made from GW Chaos Knights (just added skulls. In the store 5 PP Bane Riders cost 209PLN while Chaos Knights are 142 PLN... for 10 multipart ,a bazillion options, bigger cavalry figures!!!) I also made cool Ferox stand-ins for a friend from Cold One Knights (gave them eastern-looking shields and made gs turbans on their helmets...and while 5 ugly-as-hell-looking-like-they-were-made-in-the-80's and a nightmare to assemble Ferox cost 205PLN, 5 Cold One Knights are 81PLN)
So no, it's not that wargaming is an expensive hobby in general. It's that PP product is more than twice as expensive as equivalent product of another company which is also of better overall quality.
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Post by Morganstern on Jul 19, 2017 14:00:47 GMT
GW is a British company. PP is an American company: since 2011 the pound lost about 20% value vs the US dollar. I'm not saying PP models are cheap, but currency fluctuation is a thing. It's not just an exchange rate thing. PP charge more than GW for models that are inferior. Just for reference lets look at the new Grimkin hollow men unit RRP $ 49.99 whereas a similar style of unit from GW, Skitarii rangers RRP $ 39.00.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Jul 19, 2017 14:00:55 GMT
Prices are extremegly high for competitive meta. Looking at cygnar you would need at least a storm division list and a heavy metal one, forcing you to buy 2 completly different lists.
looking at about 200 euros for each list (including casters and such) we have a minimum entry of 400 euros, going up to at least 450 if you get a BE or colossal.
I wouldn't call that cheap, as you get only 2 lists with this money investment. WM/H costs a load of money.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 19, 2017 14:08:35 GMT
Is wmh cheap? No. Is it cheaper than 40k? Yes. Go try buying out a faction or several different competitive lists in 40k and see how that turns out. But that comparison doesn't help much, because 40k is the most costly wargame anyway.
If you want cheap, skirmishes are the way to go. There are no cheap wargames with big units and big robots and stuff.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 19, 2017 14:28:04 GMT
Is wmh cheap? No. Is it cheaper than 40k? Yes. Go try buying out a faction or several different competitive lists in 40k and see how that turns out. But that comparison doesn't help much, because 40k is the most costly wargame anyway. If you want cheap, skirmishes are the way to go. There are no cheap wargames with big units and big robots and stuff. I disagree, see examples above. By your logic a wargame where you use one 54mm figure could have this figure cost 100$ and be considered cheap. No it wouldn't because equivalent in physical models you will assemble, paint and own is what you actually buy at a store not an abstract "cost of playing a game" because it varies - someone will be happy playing WM&H battleboxes while another person won't be satisifed with anything less than a WH40K Apocalypse game. For the same amount of money I get a lot more GW models than PP models. That's an objective fact.
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Post by gribble on Jul 19, 2017 14:31:02 GMT
Is wmh cheap? No. Is it cheaper than 40k? Yes. True, although the main reason for that these days is because you need twice as many figures per list for GW. On a figure by figure basis, PP is now both more expensive and lower quality than GW. It gets even worse when you consider starter sets and army boxes. While PP battle boxes and two player starters are pretty good deals, they don't compare to the ridiculously good deals GW does on these types of lead in products. Seriously, I was pricing out the Grymkin I'd need for a decent two list combo (not even the full faction), and by the time I bought 2 x army box (a very good deal), battle engine, extra beasts (crabits, frightmares and rattlers), warlocks, solos, extra units (neigh slayers and murder crows), it came out to well over 500 GBP. At that's with a pretty good discount. I could just about get a full primaris space marine army (the new 40k hotness), including codex and hardcover rulebook for that much... and the minis would all be much higher quality injection molded plastic!
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 19, 2017 14:33:45 GMT
Is wmh cheap? No. Is it cheaper than 40k? Yes. Go try buying out a faction or several different competitive lists in 40k and see how that turns out. But that comparison doesn't help much, because 40k is the most costly wargame anyway. If you want cheap, skirmishes are the way to go. There are no cheap wargames with big units and big robots and stuff. I disagree, see examples above. By your logic a wargame where you use one 54mm figure could have this figure cost 100$ and be considered cheap. No it wouldn't because equivalent in physical models you will assemble, paint and own is what you actually buy at a store not an abstract "cost of playing a game" because it varies - someone will be happy playing WM&H battleboxes while another person won't be satisifed with anything less than a WH40K Apocalypse game. For the same amount of money I get a lot more GW models than PP models. That's an objective fact. GW models are OK but their models are boring and their game is meh. PP models are mostly meh, but their game is excellent.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 19, 2017 14:41:38 GMT
I disagree, see examples above. By your logic a wargame where you use one 54mm figure could have this figure cost 100$ and be considered cheap. No it wouldn't because equivalent in physical models you will assemble, paint and own is what you actually buy at a store not an abstract "cost of playing a game" because it varies - someone will be happy playing WM&H battleboxes while another person won't be satisifed with anything less than a WH40K Apocalypse game. For the same amount of money I get a lot more GW models than PP models. That's an objective fact. GW models are OK but their models are boring and their game is meh. PP models are mostly meh, but their game is excellent. That's why I try to mix good, affordable models with a good game
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Post by Charistoph on Jul 19, 2017 14:47:41 GMT
There are too many relative facts that are being brought in.
It IS cheaper to get in to WMH than 40K. Start Collecting! boxes versus Battleboxes tells you that much, and that's not even counting the books needed for 40K. However, as Stormsmith Dropout stated, staying at the "getting in" point is also pointless. However, how many TT games that are worth getting can you ever stay at the "getting in" point?
Per model, PP is more expensive than GW, but WMH is not only played because of the models like 40K is, and the buy in for the rules is far cheaper for WMH than for 40K.
However, PP is not the most expensive per model. For that, we can look at Corvus Belli or Fantasy Flight Games to counter that argument.
There are some interesting differences between army building of 40K and WMH, too. With 40K most armies have a core set of units the army revolves around, a couple Characters and a few squads of Troops, and then you build All Comers lists around them. With WMH, the closest you have to carrying a Core is the Warjack, most other Units and Warcasters are purchased to suit a specific game or set of opponent models. That leaves WMH requiring more extensive stable of models than does 40K.
Either way it is set up, both are expensive to create a playable army with.
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Post by flamigant on Jul 19, 2017 15:43:59 GMT
Let's not start comparing prices of GW and PP. GW plastics are in EVERY WAY superior to metal/resin from PP. I recently got back into 40K and omg it is such fun putting them together and modifying them. I must say that atm for us in Europe GW prices are cheaper then PP especially if you buy from retailers with sharp discounts.
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