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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 19, 2017 18:32:34 GMT
I'm in a weird boat. Cause I'm actively spending money on pp and on gw because i want parts to mod my pp models. So I'm effectively paying double and it doesn't really bug me
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 19, 2017 18:32:50 GMT
Hey, Rowdy! It wasn't specifically about you, or actually anyone else in this thread. I honestly don't know if arguments presented by others for the price and quality disparity are true or if they are just a justification. What I wrote is just another hypothesis I think it may be probable (if there's right demand, price rises) but doesn't have to be true!
I guess if I was a cynical CEO I would certainly take advantage of customers who are glad to pay premium for at most an average product and would try to uphold any beliefs they have about necessity of such non-competitive pricing.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Jul 19, 2017 19:30:52 GMT
Honestly, I've never really had a problem with PPs models. I have plenty of the first wave of Myrmidon kits in the soft plastic and there's a few bendy Phoenix and Banshee swords and Griffon halberds in the bag but it's just never really bothered me because they still look cool. I think it probably just comes down to priorities; I don't really care that every little detail on a model is perfect (though I can appreciate when they are) because I'm just going to paint it to tabletop standards and it's never going to be around without a bunch of other stuff.
I don't think it's that I and others like me are "customers who are glad to pay premium for at most an average product and would try to uphold any beliefs they have about necessity of such non-competitive pricing", it's just that whatever details of the modeling process that you feel is making the models worse than GW don't matter to me. I buy PP models because those are the models I want for the game I play, I pay what they cost because that's what they cost.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 19, 2017 19:56:04 GMT
PP has certainly been improving over the years but at a linear rate as opposed to exponential and as long as models like any of the Daughters of the Flame models or Nyss Hunters exist and cost as much as they do, people are easily going to be able to look at any other guy and see models they'd rather work with.
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see a good solution, there won't come a day where Flamebringers become their new hard plastic because people who already bought and built them already put in the time and money and there's not the highest influx of new players or existing players who don't own the models where that investment would pay off. You either see material upgrades on functional things like the multi-build kits or on an anticipated and hyped release when they'd be most effective from a consumer moral status on existing kits that need to be brought up to the modern age.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 19, 2017 20:26:31 GMT
People do need stop telling new players that getting into WMH is cheap. It absolutely isn't. It actually is.... Depending on how you build the army it is cheaper than getting a standard list for 40k. Short term, most 75 point lists are cheaper than your equivalent standard sized list for 40k. The same was true back in mk2 as well. Its especially true if you go more battlegroup heavy and don't get a lot of units. However, in the long run a WMH faction will be just as expensive as a 40k habit. Largely because of the 2 list standard for tournaments. Plus you don't have inter-unit compatibility(IE: you can use tactical marines as just about any of the foot slogging space marine units. Devastator squads, tactical squads, veteran squads... all use the same models pretty much). With WMH you do need to buy completely different units. You can get a 75 point WMH list going for about ~$200 MSRP. You're not going to get a 3000 point 8th edition 40k army(which seems to be the standard around here) for less than $300 MSRP. Even if you get NUmarines. WMH is cheaper to start, and you can keep your list variety up with small purchases. But in the long run its just as expensive as 40k. Its just cheaper to get a legal 75 point list up and running.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 19, 2017 20:41:50 GMT
People do need stop telling new players that getting into WMH is cheap. It absolutely isn't. It actually is.... Depending on how you build the army it is cheaper than getting a standard list for 40k. Short term, most 75 point lists are cheaper than your equivalent standard sized list for 40k. The same was true back in mk2 as well. Its especially true if you go more battlegroup heavy and don't get a lot of units. However, in the long run a WMH faction will be just as expensive as a 40k habit. Largely because of the 2 list standard for tournaments. Plus you don't have inter-unit compatibility(IE: you can use tactical marines as just about any of the foot slogging space marine units. Devastator squads, tactical squads, veteran squads... all use the same models pretty much). With WMH you do need to buy completely different units. You can get a 75 point WMH list going for about ~$200 MSRP. You're not going to get a 3000 point 8th edition 40k army(which seems to be the standard around here) for less than $300 MSRP. Even if you get NUmarines. WMH is cheaper to start, and you can keep your list variety up with small purchases. But in the long run its just as expensive as 40k. Its just cheaper to get a legal 75 point list up and running. My main objection is against players pitching battleboxes as "everything you need to play Warmachine". It would be like me telling someone that they can play an awesome video game for just $10. And they think that's great, so they buy it. Then they find out they only have access to the tutorial level, and it's gonna be like $100 to get access to standard pvp, and then even more if they want to have any sort of customization. And I love this game, but I don't like false advertisement. The Battleboxes are a good deal on some core models you can use to expand your collection when you start. You can technically play a 0 point army, but that is only the barest sort of gameplay possible.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 19, 2017 21:18:40 GMT
PP has certainly been improving over the years but at a linear rate as opposed to exponential and as long as models like any of the Daughters of the Flame models or Nyss Hunters exist and cost as much as they do, people are easily going to be able to look at any other guy and see models they'd rather work with. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see a good solution, there won't come a day where Flamebringers become their new hard plastic because people who already bought and built them already put in the time and money and there's not the highest influx of new players or existing players who don't own the models where that investment would pay off. You either see material upgrades on functional things like the multi-build kits or on an anticipated and hyped release when they'd be most effective from a consumer moral status on existing kits that need to be brought up to the modern age. Molds get worn down and need to be replaced. At some point it becomes financially more interesting to design new models and create new molds for those than to keep creating new molds for the old models.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 19, 2017 21:19:05 GMT
Looking to get back into to 40k casually and looking at what I need to get the newer stuff...I get a lot more army list value out of $60 dollars worth of Warmahordes units than I do with the same cost in GW Units...if you don't play space marines you are typically spending a lot of money to fill up army points.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 19, 2017 21:29:30 GMT
Depending on how you build the army it is cheaper than getting a standard list for 40k. Short term, most 75 point lists are cheaper than your equivalent standard sized list for 40k. The same was true back in mk2 as well. Its especially true if you go more battlegroup heavy and don't get a lot of units. However, in the long run a WMH faction will be just as expensive as a 40k habit. Largely because of the 2 list standard for tournaments. Plus you don't have inter-unit compatibility(IE: you can use tactical marines as just about any of the foot slogging space marine units. Devastator squads, tactical squads, veteran squads... all use the same models pretty much). With WMH you do need to buy completely different units. You can get a 75 point WMH list going for about ~$200 MSRP. You're not going to get a 3000 point 8th edition 40k army(which seems to be the standard around here) for less than $300 MSRP. Even if you get NUmarines. WMH is cheaper to start, and you can keep your list variety up with small purchases. But in the long run its just as expensive as 40k. Its just cheaper to get a legal 75 point list up and running. My main objection is against players pitching battleboxes as "everything you need to play Warmachine". It would be like me telling someone that they can play an awesome video game for just $10. And they think that's great, so they buy it. Then they find out they only have access to the tutorial level, and it's gonna be like $100 to get access to standard pvp, and then even more if they want to have any sort of customization. And I love this game, but I don't like false advertisement. The Battleboxes are a good deal on some core models you can use to expand your collection when you start. You can technically play a 0 point army, but that is only the barest sort of gameplay possible. Well yeah. Anybody saying its only $40 to play is being less than honest. But it is cheaper to start than 40k.
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Post by AdeptusB on Jul 19, 2017 21:34:43 GMT
The only PP price points that I find objectionable are for Units. $50US for a 10-man unit cast in resin (yuck!) is very disappointing compared to a $40US equivalent GW unit cast in high-quality plastic. And don't get me started on the cost of PP's cavalry- $100US for max Uhlans is fairly jaw-dropping...
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 19, 2017 21:37:38 GMT
Yeah. They are a little silly in their pricing for certain units. Though they have said that they cost units according to their actual cost for them. Unlike GW which prices based on how the unit fits into the faction.
GW prices basically on the ''cool factor'' instead of the cost to produce it. Anybody remember Blood Knights? GWs single most expensive unit ever. $25 per model for a model you would need to run in units of 10-15. They were gorgeous sculpts to be fair.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 19, 2017 21:42:28 GMT
But a reasonable argument for market competiveness also exists. I would like to hear why pp does ask for higher prices. Does it have to do with the cost of metal? Some of it does. Since WEEE was introduced in the EU, lead was banned in solder for products to be sold in the EU. Add to that the fact that at about the same time, the iPhone became popular and demand for tin is much higher than it was before. With that increased demand comes increased cost. It was also about the time that PP started to shift over to plastics
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 19, 2017 21:43:57 GMT
Lead was dropped by most miniature companies anyway long before that became a rule. The few who didn't got around it by labeling their products with ''This is not a toy''.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 19, 2017 21:47:50 GMT
Lead was dropped by most miniature companies anyway long before that became a rule. The few who didn't got around it by labeling their products with ''This is not a toy''. PP have never used lead and would be exempt from WEEE anyway. I'm talking about cause and effect; The quantity of consumer-electronics being brought every year has increased, which increases demand for solder. Solder with lead was banned in electronics in 28 nations at once. Because lead-free solder is made almost entirely from tin, more tin is being used in electronics. This increases demand for tin which will increase the price of tin.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 19, 2017 21:55:45 GMT
PP has certainly been improving over the years but at a linear rate as opposed to exponential and as long as models like any of the Daughters of the Flame models or Nyss Hunters exist and cost as much as they do, people are easily going to be able to look at any other guy and see models they'd rather work with. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see a good solution, there won't come a day where Flamebringers become their new hard plastic because people who already bought and built them already put in the time and money and there's not the highest influx of new players or existing players who don't own the models where that investment would pay off. You either see material upgrades on functional things like the multi-build kits or on an anticipated and hyped release when they'd be most effective from a consumer moral status on existing kits that need to be brought up to the modern age. Molds get worn down and need to be replaced. At some point it becomes financially more interesting to design new models and create new molds for those than to keep creating new molds for the old models. Are there any examples of this where a model has been updated due to such phenomena? I certainly don't doubt the possibility but there are some pretty old ass models out there and the divide in time between "this model needs an update due to shifts in art, scale, accessibility or competition" and "this model needs an update because the mold is unusable" can be pretty wide. Also, would it derail the thread too much to bring up the Free Rider policy? I understand the sentiment, but it arguably would have been preferred if PP offered more incentives for LGS to hold and provide a space for their product rather than throttling the market. This could have been done through prize support, expanding the PG system, marketing but instead it just left a sour taste in quite a few people's mouth. I can still get things cheaper online and I'll look for anomalies (I'll never find a box of the new GMP for $30 in a store) but I also put money into the stores because I'm they're more often because I have things to play and I typically buy my blisters there as opposed not buying anything from anywhere and thus having no interest to go into the store to play.
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