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Post by Azuresun on Jul 19, 2017 11:17:34 GMT
It is entirely possible that the meta will continue to oscillate when it comes to infantry. If people stop bringing lists that can deal with Irusk 2, Madrak 2, and Vlad Rockets, then they return, but how much does it take to chase them away? Same with DEF skew, or anything really. It seems that the only permanent fixtures are jacks, beasts, and ARM, but that totally makes sense. This kind of fluid metagame is healthy, and this really is the best this game has been for a very long time, maybe ever. Maybe not. If "deal with" means "bring a specific counter for their gimmick or go home", that's not healthy, and means a lot of list chicken and frustrating lost-at-deployment games. Gear checks are bad, even if every faction can answer them (and there's usually some that get left out). I always think that when people say that "X is easy to deal with, you just need this specific list in this specific faction", they've totally missed the point.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 19, 2017 16:17:25 GMT
It is entirely possible that the meta will continue to oscillate when it comes to infantry. If people stop bringing lists that can deal with Irusk 2, Madrak 2, and Vlad Rockets, then they return, but how much does it take to chase them away? Same with DEF skew, or anything really. It seems that the only permanent fixtures are jacks, beasts, and ARM, but that totally makes sense. This kind of fluid metagame is healthy, and this really is the best this game has been for a very long time, maybe ever. Maybe not. If "deal with" means "bring a specific counter for their gimmick or go home", that's not healthy, and means a lot of list chicken and frustrating lost-at-deployment games. Gear checks are bad, even if every faction can answer them (and there's usually some that get left out). I always think that when people say that "X is easy to deal with, you just need this specific list in this specific faction", they've totally missed the point. If a list gets to a point where you can't really beat it without building specifically to do so, then yes, of course, that's a problem. But, for example, the Grissel 2 list that Trollock and Chris Dancocks developed can handle infantry swarms just fine without building specifically to do so. We can build Grim 1 to take down DEF skew, but those same lists are usually also very strong against say, Hark, especially if he (ironically) doesn't bring enough guns. And in a healthy, diverse metagame, bringing a silver bullet can actually backfire. What if you never face Ghost Fleet and then you don't have anything that can stop Forges of War? I'm very curious to see how the meta sorts out in this first month or two of the new Steamroller. I do think that Ghost Fleet is still very strong, but Grim 1 is getting his full feat back, the Grymkin make their big entrance, and Storm Lances are getting nerfed but not hard enough to remove them entirely.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jul 19, 2017 19:40:45 GMT
So, there are no standings from L&L anywhere? Ig Winner Patrick dunford Haley2 heavy metal Stryker1 storm division 2nd Aaron wale Denny1 ghost fleet Gaspy2 dark host 3/4 David beauchamp Vlad1 rockets Butcher3 more rockets. 3/4 Cory burns Vayl2 oracles Abby2 oracles Masters Winner Brandon Andrews Denny1 ghost fleet Skaare1 dark host 2nd Keith Christensen Haley3 Caine3 heavy metal 3/4 Greg schadt Nemo3 storm division Sloan heavy metal 3/4 myself Haley2 heavy metal Stryker1 heavy metal.
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Post by garou on Jul 19, 2017 19:53:40 GMT
I've been told the game is the most balanced it ever been between factions. Sure as hell don't look that way to me...
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Post by oncouch1 on Jul 19, 2017 19:58:11 GMT
I've been told the game is the most balanced it ever been between factions. Sure as hell don't look that way to me... The factions are closer than mk2. In that edition there were 4 factions head and shoulders better than the rest. Cygnar, cryx, circle, legion. In mk3 I would not say that is the case. Cryx, cygnar are probably a little above the curve. That said the distance between the haves and have nots is closer than previous. I have no clue how anyone played anything besides the big four last edition.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 19, 2017 20:04:43 GMT
I've been told the game is the most balanced it ever been between factions. Sure as hell don't look that way to me... I mean, MK3 pushed up the bottom of the barrel for the most part, I'd say more stuff is "usable" now than in MK2. The main problem are theme lists which don't have much parity between each other because some benefit models in factions that were already good and some just bring the more struggling units into usability and some are just boring. It also doesn't help that PP somehow managed to get us into the same situation as the end of MK2 where Cryx and Cygnar dominated everything.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Jul 19, 2017 20:06:20 GMT
I've been told the game is the most balanced it ever been between factions. Sure as hell don't look that way to me... The factions are closer than mk2. In that edition there were 4 factions head and shoulders better than the rest. Cygnar, cryx, circle, legion. In mk3 I would not say that is the case. Cryx, cygnar are probably a little above the curve. That said the distance between the haves and have nots is closer than previous. I have no clue how anyone played anything besides the big four last edition. Dark Horse Power and individually competitive theme lists!?!
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Post by garou on Jul 19, 2017 20:07:00 GMT
You don't take 6 of the 8 top positions by being 'probably a little ahead of the curve', your definitely well ahead of the curve in that case.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 19, 2017 21:29:11 GMT
You don't take 6 of the 8 top positions by being 'probably a little ahead of the curve', your definitely well ahead of the curve in that case. At a single event? Kingdomcon Iron Gauntlet MK 3 2017 May 06, 2017 1st: Michael Scherer Retribution of Scyrah 2nd: John DeShazer Trollbloods 3rd: Brandon Owens Cygnar 4th: Brad Herman Retribution of Scyrah Kingdomcon Masters MK 3 2017 May 05, 2017 1st: Dan Yount Circle Orboros 2nd: Scott Khador 3rd: Brian Marino Legion of Everblight Easy to find "proof" for anything, if all you need is a single instance.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 19, 2017 21:55:25 GMT
Masters of wintercon First: Khador Second: mercs Third: Khador Fourth: Ret
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Post by garou on Jul 19, 2017 23:33:34 GMT
Ofc you complain about single event so here we go. Took last 2 months of tournaments from discountgames, not including teams tournaments cause that gets weird. See if you can find a pattern here.
Bison Brawl 2017 MK 3 May 20, 2017 1st: Brent Simon Cygnar
MoMCon 2017 MK 3 May 27, 2017 1st: Tim Banky Cryx
Italian Masters 2017 MK 3 May 29, 2017 1st: Alessandro "ATP" Montagnani Cryx
Rocky Mountain Rumble 2017 MK 3 June 17, 2017 1st: Matt Zelus Cryx
Gateway Open 2017 MK 3 June 23, 2017 1st: Brent Simon Cygnar
Millenium Games 2017 MK 3 June 24, 2017 1st: Charles Soong Mercenaries
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Post by Aegis on Jul 20, 2017 0:30:59 GMT
Cygnar got a surge of victories in the last months thanks to an OP unit (Stormlances) in a theme that made them even better.
That unit will be nerfed soon, and if the changes stick from CID, the nerf will be significant. I would wait and see how it goes after it before starting the doomcalls.
Also, Cygnar was the faction with most themes released (so with more possible list variants to get different answers). Quite a bit of factions had just 1 playable theme until recently, so they were at disadvantage, but they are now releasing new themes and others were promised to follow before the end of the year.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jul 20, 2017 4:53:15 GMT
You don't take 6 of the 8 top positions by being 'probably a little ahead of the curve', your definitely well ahead of the curve in that case. Dude, it was one event. I was part of the all legion top 3 of lock and load a few years ago did that one event mean legion won everything in all of mark2?
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Post by oncouch1 on Jul 20, 2017 4:55:20 GMT
Cygnar got a surge of victories in the last months thanks to an OP unit (Stormlances) in a theme that made them even better. That unit will be nerfed soon, and if the changes stick from CID, the nerf will be significant. I would wait and see how it goes after it before starting the doomcalls. Also, Cygnar was the faction with most themes released (so with more possible list variants to get different answers). Quite a bit of factions had just 1 playable theme until recently, so they were at disadvantage, but they are now releasing new themes and others were promised to follow before the end of the year. The "nerf" is laughable. It actually makes the lances far stronger. Their damage output gets even more impressive with the change.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 20, 2017 5:03:23 GMT
Cygnar got a surge of victories in the last months thanks to an OP unit (Stormlances) in a theme that made them even better. That unit will be nerfed soon, and if the changes stick from CID, the nerf will be significant. I would wait and see how it goes after it before starting the doomcalls. Also, Cygnar was the faction with most themes released (so with more possible list variants to get different answers). Quite a bit of factions had just 1 playable theme until recently, so they were at disadvantage, but they are now releasing new themes and others were promised to follow before the end of the year. The "nerf" is laughable. It actually makes the lances far stronger. Their damage output gets even more impressive with the change. Did you read it well? Between Lances themselves and Laddermoore, the change is: - 1 RAT - 2 POW on guns - Lost E-leap on guns + 1 POW on melee The change basically removes their ranged game (you don't pay 20 points to get 5x RAT 5, RNG 8 POW 12 shots without E-leap) and even in melee, they gain 1 POW on the melee attack, but having lost 1 RAT and 2 POW on the assault shot, they do less damage then before (it comes closes to similar just against very high ARM where the assault shot would have done little anyway). Basically now to get work done you have to commit them into a charge, and even if you do you do less total damage than before... Could you explain me how they could get "far stronger" from a change like this?
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