kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 5:05:42 GMT
Either way we have to adapt to it. Which I would enjoy greatly. If we do have a"boogeyman" that thrashes heavy armor/box spam. We could see an upset in the meta. That would be good in my book. I always felt like Bane Warriors and similar models were boogeymen for heavy armor. If someone really cracks Dark Host open or Cryx really re-emerges in flavors that are not ghost fleet you may see some of this shift. In the last game I played, the Cygnar player could definitely have benefited from a 10-man unit to bubble wrap his 'jacks from Bane Riders, etc. Dark host looks really really good and capable of giving more than one headache. Can't charge them because they shred jacks to piece, can't shoot them because they're stealthy. Plus they will put incorporeal stuff in the front to countercharge you. If isn't enough, wraith engine gives an armor buff. Looking at the list as is I don't see many counterplay at least in khador, unless you start to pick flare units. Because spray ponies aren't going to hurt armor buffed units much, or bane knights.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 18, 2017 5:17:36 GMT
Because spray ponies aren't going to hurt armor buffed units much, or bane knights. Well you could apply S+P or Hand of Fate. They're POW12, right? That should demolish Banez with either of those buffs, especially warriors.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 7:44:27 GMT
If scaverous is at the helm, you are looking at another +2 on top of the Wraith engine aura.
Bane warriors are potentially ARM 19 with tough and recursion, bane knight get +2 for aura, +2 for iron wall and another potential +2 if scavvy use the upkeep spell on them, for a total of a potential ARM 22. Bane knights are also potentially ARM 22 if the upkeep goes on them. Pow 12 magic shotguns got a -7, -8 or -10 in total to damage. And there is still the possibility bane knights will be used to intercept them and kill them before they can get at the warriors.
List is more solid than it look and atm looks like the only army to have decent play into them is cygnar due to the hig power / sniper true sight guns they can deploy.
Vlad 2 can potentially clear the clouds, but still you will have forests and even ruins to give banes prowl and further increase their DEF value.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 18, 2017 7:50:53 GMT
Well not everyone will have the +2 ARM buff. Just spray those that don't. I'm not saying it's easy, but I think you have a game there.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 8:08:34 GMT
Wraith engine command range is 10, so quite high. Surely not everything will fit in 10 (especially the knights, who would probably flank) but several stuff will do, at least to protect them from shooting. When stuff get in melee then probably not, but at that point is a bit late. Unless of course you can bear the initial charge and hit them back with comparable strenght.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 18, 2017 8:14:47 GMT
I meant Scaverous' Upkeep which can naturally only go on one target. So the absolute maximum you'll have to deal with is ARM20, which is not the end of the world.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 9:34:55 GMT
I meant Scaverous' Upkeep which can naturally only go on one target. So the absolute maximum you'll have to deal with is ARM20, which is not the end of the world. No is not, but it's ARM 20 stealthed stuff with ghostly. Just image a unit of mini khador jacks with stealth and unimpeded by terrain... Not too nice. If you have the misfortune of a ruin scenario in the middle of the board they're also DEF 16...
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 9:43:27 GMT
I meant Scaverous' Upkeep which can naturally only go on one target. So the absolute maximum you'll have to deal with is ARM20, which is not the end of the world. No is not, but it's ARM 20 stealthed stuff with ghostly. Just image a unit of mini khador jacks with stealth and unimpeded by terrain... Not too nice. If you have the misfortune of a ruin scenario in the middle of the board they're also DEF 16... They're not Stealthed in Rubble though, the same could be said for any DEF 12 infantry with Pathfinder. They don't have Stealth, they have Prowl, the probability of the whole army actually benefiting from Stealth is pretty much zero. ARM 20 is only on one unit and then he's not putting the ARM buff on his medium based caster. Khador jacks also have slightly more boxes than single wound infantry. Not to say Dark Host isn't a good theme though, because it is. "Just imagine a bunch of Khador jacks you can't shoot at and unimpeded by terrain": so Jaws of the Wolf under Harkevich? Yeah, that's pretty scary.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 18, 2017 10:09:16 GMT
I meant Scaverous' Upkeep which can naturally only go on one target. So the absolute maximum you'll have to deal with is ARM20, which is not the end of the world. No is not, but it's ARM 20 stealthed stuff with ghostly. Just image a unit of mini khador jacks with stealth and unimpeded by terrain... Not too nice. If you have the misfortune of a ruin scenario in the middle of the board they're also DEF 16... I thought we were talking about Sprayponies? What do they care about Stealth, Cover or Concealment? And are they not SPD alot so they can pick their targets however they choose, getting those juicy Warriors instead of the tougher Knights?
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 10:13:25 GMT
They're not Stealthed in Rubble though, the same could be said for any DEF 12 infantry with Pathfinder. They don't have Stealth, they have Prowl, the probability of the whole army actually benefiting from Stealth is pretty much zero. ARM 20 is only on one unit and then he's not putting the ARM buff on his medium based caster. Khador jacks also have slightly more boxes than single wound infantry. Not to say Dark Host isn't a good theme though, because it is. "Just imagine a bunch of Khador jacks you can't shoot at and unimpeded by terrain": so Jaws of the Wolf under Harkevich? Yeah, that's pretty scary. Ah I thought rubble would work with prowl. But considering the 2 clouds, plus a forest plus something else, if not everyone several pieces would be stealthy. I'm just trying to look at possible counters and so far, I don't think widowmakers are so good, anti infantry jacks (like devastators) could get shredded after the first charge, so with few chances to retaliate and the list packs also a solid -4 ARM on a single target. So I'm not sure what you can effectively use to counter that, maybe other infantry? eliminators and Kayazy maybe? Or playing Sorscha 1, feating and then putting a devastator into their face? If you can catch most of the infantry, chances are they can't kill him and you could potentially have 2 turns of Rain of Death.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 18, 2017 11:23:45 GMT
Anyone have a link to L&L standings? Preferably masters and iron gauntlet?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 11:27:41 GMT
They're not Stealthed in Rubble though, the same could be said for any DEF 12 infantry with Pathfinder. They don't have Stealth, they have Prowl, the probability of the whole army actually benefiting from Stealth is pretty much zero. ARM 20 is only on one unit and then he's not putting the ARM buff on his medium based caster. Khador jacks also have slightly more boxes than single wound infantry. Not to say Dark Host isn't a good theme though, because it is. "Just imagine a bunch of Khador jacks you can't shoot at and unimpeded by terrain": so Jaws of the Wolf under Harkevich? Yeah, that's pretty scary. Ah I thought rubble would work with prowl. But considering the 2 clouds, plus a forest plus something else, if not everyone several pieces would be stealthy. I'm just trying to look at possible counters and so far, I don't think widowmakers are so good, anti infantry jacks (like devastators) could get shredded after the first charge, so with few chances to retaliate and the list packs also a solid -4 ARM on a single target. So I'm not sure what you can effectively use to counter that, maybe other infantry? eliminators and Kayazy maybe? Or playing Sorscha 1, feating and then putting a devastator into their face? If you can catch most of the infantry, chances are they can't kill him and you could potentially have 2 turns of Rain of Death. Sorscha 1 is a fairly good idea: she's hard to kill with Wind Rush and her feat is still devastating against infantry. Don't rely on heavies to save you though, I would go with some Winterguard instead. Banes are pretty much only DEF 12, have a 9/10" threat range (except the cavalry of course) and they usually have at least one turn where there is no terrain to protect them. I reckon the new Gun Carriage would also be fairly devastating, with a solid threat range, lots of infantry clearing potential and can snipe out a few cavalry on the way (just watch out for Vengeance) Other infantry is a good idea in general. Banes are MAT 6 base, 7 with Tartarus and then maybe 9 with Icy Grip, that still leaves Kayazy as hard to hit and other infantry should usually have the volume of attacks to bring them down. Be careful of charging the Knights though, DEF 14 because of Set Defense and ARM 18 with Wall of Steel can be touch for light infantry to crack.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 12:26:53 GMT
I'm well aware that infanty is a tough nut to crack, but the kayazy have a interesting perk. They all have anatomical precision. And if models are stationary, they autohit.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 18, 2017 12:33:17 GMT
It's not that useful against Bane Knights though. Should help against Warriors if I am not misremembering.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 12:42:23 GMT
It is, anatomical precision makes always one point of damage, even if your roll do not exceed armor. Meaning you always kill, regardless of how much armor the banes can stack.
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