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Post by Cryptix on Jul 15, 2017 14:32:54 GMT
And then when that totally newb player comes into the store and is wowed by the game and tells you "I want to play that cool voodoo crocs!", you tell him: "yeah, sure, but you better play them with this samurai from the desert guys, because they are the same, just better" or "you know what, if you want to play these cool Resistance fighters, it's better if you just play Cygnar and paint them purple, black and yellow (like a bruise)" or "You sure you don't prefer your pirates undead and with horns? Because they are getting cool toys the normal pirates won't" That's not cool. In a game as competitive as WM is I don't think is too much to ask to be able to play the faction (or theme) you want without feeling heavily handicapped for your decision How do you assume mercs and minions aren't going through CID and getting new releases? Or are you just upset that we have to wait turns? Look, I get it. I have over 400 points of Farrow. But good things come to those who wait.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 15, 2017 14:42:46 GMT
And then when that totally newb player comes into the store and is wowed by the game and tells you "I want to play that cool voodoo crocs!", you tell him: "yeah, sure, but you better play them with this samurai from the desert guys, because they are the same, just better" or "you know what, if you want to play these cool Resistance fighters, it's better if you just play Cygnar and paint them purple, black and yellow (like a bruise)" or "You sure you don't prefer your pirates undead and with horns? Because they are getting cool toys the normal pirates won't" That's not cool. It sounds like you are an exceptionally competitive Warmahordes gamer from your comments. Nothing wrong with that, but... 1) Does everybody that gets into this game need to be as competitive as you? Can't they play "casual" games? 2) If someone does get into this game to play competitively, do they have to play with the same mindset as you? Yes, you do want to help the newbs out and make sure that they don't fall into holes that they cannot get out of, but you also need to let them grow on their own and experience the game on their own terms. 3) Just because the Cryx will sometime in the future be getting a new theme force doesn't mean that is what someone should play right now. If my wife were to start collecting an army and playing it would be a Privateer pirate army. She wouldn't start getting Satyxis, Blighted Trolls, and Black Ogrun in anticipation of Skarre3, she would get Sea Dogs, cannons, and all of the various solos. Why? Because she likes pirates and pirate movies. The rules for Warmachine and Hordes are well written and excellent for competitive gaming. But it's not the game that is competitive, it's just some of the players.
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Post by Azuresun on Jul 15, 2017 19:23:26 GMT
How do you assume mercs and minions aren't going through CID and getting new releases? Or are you just upset that we have to wait turns? Look, I get it. I have over 400 points of Farrow. But good things come to those who wait. I've been waiting my turn for a year, more than anyone except players of the factions who knew going in that they were limited. And when my faction gets even a quarter of the love that Cygnar or Khador have gotten since Mk3 dropped, then I'll happily admit I was wrong. But right now, if you can't understand why I'm fed up (not raging, not salty, not entitled, just fed up), then I don't know how to explain it any better.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 15, 2017 19:28:09 GMT
I've been waiting my turn for a year, more than anyone except players of the factions who knew going in that they were limited. And when my faction gets even a quarter of the love that Cygnar or Khador have gotten since Mk3 dropped, then I'll happily admit I was wrong. But right now, if you can't understand why I'm fed up (not raging, not salty, not entitled, just fed up), then I don't know how to explain it any better. What faction are you interested in and didn't expect limited releases?
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Post by Azuresun on Jul 15, 2017 20:42:18 GMT
The themes are not going to help with stagnation, the army lists being derived from the themes are rather stagnant in design. I think PP is trying out allowing Mercs and Minions in the army lists to prevent the stagnation and increase sales in the miniatures that are not seeing a lot of purchases. The High Shields may not be the optimal choice for seizing a quick victory in an SR game, but in a casual game between friends they look like a fun unit to play. First up, why would releases need to stop to rework the themes? Did they stop for the existing ones? And balanced themes are only good for releases--get Sons of the Tempest or Band of Heroes good enough to make their raw material competitive, and Gun Mages and Fennblades start flying off the shelves. Casual vs competitive is an entirely unrelated discussion. If you're just playing knockabout games with friends, then you....don't need themes in the first place, making the discussion entirely irrelevant. If I want to play a fluffy "zealous converts" list with Idrians and Zealots led by Vindictus or Severius, I can already do that. I don't get bonuses for it because that theme doesn't exist, but if I'm playing just for fun with no care about winning, why do I need mechanical rewards? If you're using themes (rather than just using certain self-limited models) and taking the rewards for them, it's safe to assume you care about mechanical effectiveness. And at that point, it matters when one player is running a super-fluffy list and getting rewarded for it, while the other is running an even more fluffy list and getting nothing, for no particular reason.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jul 15, 2017 21:37:00 GMT
If you're using themes (rather than just using certain self-limited models) and taking the rewards for them, it's safe to assume you care about mechanical effectiveness. And at that point, it matters when one player is running a super-fluffy list and getting rewarded for it, while the other is running an even more fluffy list and getting nothing, for no particular reason. Well... that's one of the problems with themes, isn't it? Why is there a warpwolf theme and not a dire troll theme? I think the only answer to that is that PP can't make rules for everything. The only thing that makes sense is to look at the things they have actually made rules for, and not think about all the things they haven't made rules for.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 15, 2017 21:41:20 GMT
If you're using themes (rather than just using certain self-limited models) and taking the rewards for them, it's safe to assume you care about mechanical effectiveness. And at that point, it matters when one player is running a super-fluffy list and getting rewarded for it, while the other is running an even more fluffy list and getting nothing, for no particular reason. Well... that's one of the problems with themes, isn't it? Why is there a warpwolf theme and not a dire troll theme? I think the only answer to that is that PP can't make rules for everything. ... at once. PP can't make rules for everything *at once*.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Jul 15, 2017 22:03:03 GMT
And then when that totally newb player comes into the store and is wowed by the game and tells you "I want to play that cool voodoo crocs!", you tell him: "yeah, sure, but you better play them with this samurai from the desert guys, because they are the same, just better" or "you know what, if you want to play these cool Resistance fighters, it's better if you just play Cygnar and paint them purple, black and yellow (like a bruise)" or "You sure you don't prefer your pirates undead and with horns? Because they are getting cool toys the normal pirates won't" That's not cool. In a game as competitive as WM is I don't think is too much to ask to be able to play the faction (or theme) you want without feeling heavily handicapped for your decision How do you assume mercs and minions aren't going through CID and getting new releases? Or are you just upset that we have to wait turns? Look, I get it. I have over 400 points of Farrow. But good things come to those who wait. Read Soles statement, it is quite clear to me the themes he mentions he is using as examples of "themes we can release without releasing models". I really hope I'm wrong and I get a Llael CiD with 10 releases, but I would bet my firstborn it is not gonna be. Btw, I'm not a competitive player, but for the life of me I don't get how you people don't understand Merc players getting fed up of being second class citizens only because they chose the "wrong faction"
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 15, 2017 22:19:36 GMT
Btw, I'm not a competitive player, but for the life of me I don't get how you people don't understand Merc players getting fed up of being second class citizens only because they chose the "wrong faction" That is completly and utterly not what he meant: This means for instance the WGI. They are a competitive and viable theme that needs no new releases. If they released the Northkin theme force now for instance, people would be like "Uh...What?" The idea is that they want to get some themes done quickly for thematic stuff there is already allot of. As much as Pirates complain, the Piratey stuff makes up about as much releases as a regular theme does, but a Lael theme force for instance would lack too many choices (Unless it has a ton of crossover with the Protectorate or Cygnar).
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jul 16, 2017 8:09:06 GMT
... at once. PP can't make rules for everything *at once*. Also just in general. A dire troll theme is something that doesn't exist currently, but that some people might want. There are an infinite number of things that people might potentially want. PP aren't going to make rules for everything that anyone might want within the lifetime of WMH as a game.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 16, 2017 10:37:29 GMT
... at once. PP can't make rules for everything *at once*. Also just in general. A dire troll theme is something that doesn't exist currently, but that some people might want. There are an infinite number of things that people might potentially want. PP aren't going to make rules for everything that anyone might want within the lifetime of WMH as a game. Rage of Dhunia doesn't exist?
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Post by Korianneder on Jul 16, 2017 14:04:20 GMT
Yea why isn't Power of Dhunia a dire troll theme? You get free models for warbeasts, some of which can be whelps, the beasts get extra threshold.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 16, 2017 15:19:36 GMT
PoD is the Troll Beast theme. You get several support models for free for taking beasts.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 16, 2017 16:09:14 GMT
If we're talking jack/beast theme restrictions it should be - HM is Ironclad and Centurion chassis only - JotW is Pathfinder jacks only, with nee releases for the Kodiak chassis - PoD is Dire Trolls and the Kings etc. New Dire Troll releases and buffs accompanying it. Actually give them a restriction based on theme.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 16, 2017 16:12:49 GMT
If we're talking jack/beast theme restrictions it should be - HM is Ironclad and Centurion chassis only - JotW is Pathfinder jacks only, with nee releases for the Kodiak chassis - PoD is Dire Trolls and the Kings etc. New Dire Troll releases and buffs accompanying it. Actually give them a restriction based on theme. So like Jack or Beast based themes with like 3 different options? If you don't want Jack/Beast based themes to exist thats OK, but don't utterly smash them to bits and then say "Its a thematic Restriction". Are you saying that the Northkin theme should be Northkin beasts only? Whats with this aim to super restrict beasts that don't really need that much restriction?
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