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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 14:53:02 GMT
You have to include the hit % or it doesn't make sense. Especially because warjacks are by and large MAT 7 and beasts are MAT 6. Ret and most of protectorate would like to disagree with you
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Post by borderprince on Jun 30, 2017 14:54:17 GMT
In relation to Khador jacks, and as a Khador player who likes playing jack-heavy lists:
(1) The Juggernaut is a monster of destruction which can do much more damage than its points suggest. Against its preferred targets. When it gets there. Without its right arm being crippled. With a full focus load. Those are a lot of conditions. The same applies to jacks like the Crusader. The opportunity cost for fielding those jacks does not lie entirely in their points cost, but in the diversion of Focus to let them do their job, and often the additional support them need.
The preferred targets point is a big one, as it isn't that difficult to use your own models to restrict a Juggernaut's movement, or require it to trample to reach its target. Gumming up a juggernaut with a few cheap infantry is a sensible strategy and can keep it out of making a meaningful impact for a significat portion of the game. If you're relying on Juggernauts for your anti-heavy work you really need to also invest in mechanics, or any opponent with reasonable shooting/higher threat range on jacks might cripple it's right arm and you are in real trouble.
(2) I liked the Marauder at 10 points without Siege Weapon and took it in lists. Before the errata it was an interesting utility jack with combo-smite, but not a serious beater unless you added a damage buff. I think the errata made the Marauder too useful (particularly for Karchev).
(3) The speed issue is a big one. Yes many Khador casters can address it. But doing so uses up Focus or a Feat. Obviously using a Feat is a one time only thing. Focus is also a very limited resource to most Khador casters, more so than for some factions (maybe on a level with mercs?). Casting Boundless Charge and filling up a beater jack will use 2/3 of most casters' stack (Vlad1 can't even do that if you want/need the damage or accuracy buff from Hand of Fate). That means they probably aren't also topping up another jack to do damage elsewhere, or casting a damage buff. They might upkeep a spell, but are then limited to 1 Focus for the powerfield, which makes them vulnerable, especially when many Khador casters like to play a mid-field role.
(4) Limited internal jack support. There are not that many buffs to jacks' actual attacks in Khador and those which do exist are tied to the caster (or journeyman, in the case of Andrei1). No Choir, no Arcanist Mechaniks, for example. The damage buffs which can be put on jacks can often be placed on warrior units to equivalent or better effect.
Points (3) and (4) make the point that all Khador jacks need to be evaluated in the context of a faction in which Focus is a very previous resource. Generally good base stats are more or less necessary to get over that. This has been slightly ameliorated by the Forgeseer. However, the Forgeseer is mostly a support model, which is something Khador players are not used to. Including such support eats in to the available points for jacks/units (themes obviously affect that, to an extent).
(5) More specifically, some of the speed buffs are also not guaranteed. Both Karchev and Strakhov1 only get their spell-based speed buffs when an enemy model is destroyed. It's not usually viable to make this impossible, but it is possible to make it more difficult for the Khador player to achieve, forcing them to make difficult decisions about order of activation and how desperate they are for that speed buff. Karchev also has to choose between two different type of movement tricks (both are SELF upkeeps) and both can be played around to some extent.
(6) I think the bigger issue people have with Khador jacks is when played in quantity (not necessarily spam), it is simply very difficult to get through them all with a balanced list. However, no Khador caster can run that many jacks at anything like peak efficiency, nor buff the speed of all of them consistently. At that point the jacks are annoying because of their impact on scenario play, not their damage output or other stats. SR2017 should help with this to some extent, but other things which worry Khador players with jack-heavy lists: (i) Shooting - Harkevich is not that tough. If you have access to Shadowfire he can be in trouble. He isn't unique in Khador in that regard. This issue is particularly acute in theme lists, where very few Khador players take a Rager to shield guard key shots. No Khador caster likes being hit by Eiryss1, but without shield guards, she is not that easy to stop, especially in a jack-heavy list (slow speed and limited access to pathfinder makes it difficult to catch her). (ii) Movement tricks - anything which lets the opponent get around the slow jacks and go for assassination is worrying. Probably not an issue for Karchev in most cases, but it can be for Butchers and downwards. Khador casters tend to be mid-field casters, so are often skirting opposing threat ranges. It's an inherent weakess of Khador as a faction that the casters often need to be placed closer to the action than some factions. Related are things like knockdown and other shakeable effects which at best use up the power-up focus, but can slow down the jacks too. (iii) Warrior spam - where the warriors can damage the jacks but the jacks can't get through the warriors fast enough. The high P+S of the jacks' weapons is wasted. Irusk2 with Iron Fangs is a good example. Satyxis Raiders can be a terror with Cryxian damage buffs. They damage the jacks and can assassinate a caster with Feedback. Both of those examples can also provide blast immunity, which removes one of jack-heavy lists principal anti-infantry techinques. (iv) Inconvenient terrain - Kodiaks are good in terrain, but the Grolar is very expensive. Other than that, Khador jacks need spells/feats to handle any terrain at all. Terrain in the wrong placed, or summoned terrain, can really spoil things. A Rock Wall can prevent a Juggernaut from ever reaching a desirable target.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 14:54:43 GMT
and you've lost the intent again. I did not ask for something without considering the options. I play Khador, Cryx, Legion, Circle, and Minnions. I know what I have as a legion player. I know what I have as a Khador player. I'm not trying to strip things from one or buff the other with no knowledge. I'm not asking for total equity. I'm reall asking to be within 30-50% that point. instead of 300% I also compared Typhon to a Juggernaut. I can't get more "best vs. best"... Should I compare Behemoth to Typhon. Cuz I've got plenty of ammo there as well. You are comparing a super-efficient jack with a super-premium-cost elite beast, so the comparison is quite difficult (Rowdy or Avatar doesn't trade equally with Juggernaughts too, as an example, but it's not a problem of Rowdy. There are things made to be cheap and efficient and things made to be expensive but with extra goodies attached). Maybe Typhon costs too much for what it does, and Juggernaught is for sure one of the most cost-efficient jacks in the game, but again those are single models problems, so I think that are things that should be discussed into CID when their turn comes out more than be used to make comparisons between Hordes and Warmachine. Ok. Behemoth is hitting Typhon at dice +3 every punch. Typhon is hitting Behemoth at dice -3 every bite. Behemoth on Average (Mat 7 vs Def 13) dice kills Typhon through excessive healing with only 4 punches. Typhon with all 8 attacks failes to kill Behemoth by 4 damage.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 30, 2017 14:56:49 GMT
You have to include the hit % or it doesn't make sense. Especially because warjacks are by and large MAT 7 and beasts are MAT 6. Ret and most of protectorate would like to disagree with you
Sorry Ret guys! Forgot about you! I was under the impressions the most used in protectorate have MAT 7...
I'll change to "A lot of warjacks have MAT 7 and most beasts are MAT 6.". Much safer
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 14:57:39 GMT
Cheap beat sticks are only high quality in a single regard...being cheap beatsticks, by spamming them it is often just a case of 'winning harder', and you are left unable to counter things that a more diverse range of jacks would have been able to answer. an example would be a Khador jack list going up against a Caine 1 Sons of the Tempest list, double Gun Mages, two marshalled Cyclones, Hurricaine maybe. That Tempest list would wipe the floor with a list that had 10 Marauders and nothing else, not a single jack would ever reach melee, and you have no guns whatsoever to retaliate. Now lets say you have more of a variety of jacks, couple of devastators, couple of Kodiaks, maybe a Destroyer. you can now create a cloud wall to protect the jacks behind from Thunderbolts, use the Sturdy Devastators as anchors at the back to stop things being pushed back, you have some AOEs to whittle down the gun mages, you now have a game. What stops you from just moving your jacks in triangles and having your back jacks hide behind 2 base to base jacks and stopping them from being pushed? Like you're blocking line of sight to your back jacks and stopping your front jacks from being moved. You can do that with 10 marauders. And have an extra marauder to be the distraction . Like strategy doesn't end at list building The fact that you have 2 free Captain Adepts and Ace who can shadowfire the LOS blocking jacks
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 15:00:07 GMT
Don't those captain adepts have true sight anyways or am i mistaken.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 15:04:20 GMT
Don't those captain adepts have true sight anyways or am i mistaken. They always have True Sight, True sight allows them to ignore Stealth and Cloud Effects when drawing LOS.
They also have Shadowfire as a Rune Shot, a model hit by Shadowfire does not block LOS for one turn. they also have arcane savant so can use two Rune Shots each attack, usually they use Snipe as the second so they go to RNG 14
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 30, 2017 15:07:12 GMT
Cheap beat sticks are only high quality in a single regard...being cheap beatsticks, by spamming them it is often just a case of 'winning harder', and you are left unable to counter things that a more diverse range of jacks would have been able to answer. an example would be a Khador jack list going up against a Caine 1 Sons of the Tempest list, double Gun Mages, two marshalled Cyclones, Hurricaine maybe. That Tempest list would wipe the floor with a list that had 10 Marauders and nothing else, not a single jack would ever reach melee, and you have no guns whatsoever to retaliate. Now lets say you have more of a variety of jacks, couple of devastators, couple of Kodiaks, maybe a Destroyer. you can now create a cloud wall to protect the jacks behind from Thunderbolts, use the Sturdy Devastators as anchors at the back to stop things being pushed back, you have some AOEs to whittle down the gun mages, you now have a game. What stops you from just moving your jacks in triangles and having your back jacks hide behind 2 base to base jacks and stopping them from being pushed? Like you're blocking line of sight to your back jacks and stopping your front jacks from being moved. You can do that with 10 marauders. And have an extra marauder to be the distraction . Like strategy doesn't end at list building Thunderbolt has crit. Knockdown. Slap Deadeye on the gun mages. Use the Hurricane's guns to knockdown a couple of the Marauders. Gun mages shoot, knock down some jacks, push the rear ones away. But you are right. Piling up the Marauders would be enough to deliver them. It would be a pretty interesting fight.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 15:14:23 GMT
What stops you from just moving your jacks in triangles and having your back jacks hide behind 2 base to base jacks and stopping them from being pushed? Like you're blocking line of sight to your back jacks and stopping your front jacks from being moved. You can do that with 10 marauders. And have an extra marauder to be the distraction . Like strategy doesn't end at list building Thunderbolt has crit. Knockdown. Slap Deadeye on the gun mages. Use the Hurricane's guns to knockdown a couple of the Marauders. Gun mages shoot, knock down some jacks, push the rear ones away. But you are right. Piling up the Marauders would be enough to deliver them. It would be a pretty interesting fight. I dunno, Hurricane probably goes first, knocks down the front two, Adepts and Ace Shadowfire the next 3 behind, by that point you Cyclones and Mages most likely have LOS to the back row, you then get 14 Gun mage Thunderbolts, and 4 x d3 Cyclone Thunderbolts, seems heavily favoured towards Caine.
however like I said, if you have devastators anchoring the back, or kodiaks throwing up a cloud wall, the Khador player should be fine
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 30, 2017 15:23:10 GMT
Thunderbolt has crit. Knockdown. Slap Deadeye on the gun mages. Use the Hurricane's guns to knockdown a couple of the Marauders. Gun mages shoot, knock down some jacks, push the rear ones away. But you are right. Piling up the Marauders would be enough to deliver them. It would be a pretty interesting fight. I dunno, Hurricane probably goes first, knocks down the front two, Adepts and Ace Shadowfire the next 3 behind, by that point you Cyclones and Mages most likely have LOS to the back row, you then get 14 Gun mage Thunderbolts, and 4 x d3 Cyclone Thunderbolts, seems heavily favoured towards Caine.
however like I said, if you have devastators anchoring the back, or kodiaks throwing up a cloud wall, the Khador player should be fine
True. True. Against a pure Marauder spam list, SotT could do well. The things doing actual damge would be the Hurricane, and the Gun Mage Riflemen (who could scalpel out a cortex in 2 turns). It would be a hell of a grind. And the constant threat of an assassination would be there. The Hurricane with Snipe is brutal. But, that is a whole lot of armor and boxes...
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 30, 2017 15:54:31 GMT
You are comparing a super-efficient jack with a super-premium-cost elite beast, so the comparison is quite difficult (Rowdy or Avatar doesn't trade equally with Juggernaughts too, as an example, but it's not a problem of Rowdy. There are things made to be cheap and efficient and things made to be expensive but with extra goodies attached). Maybe Typhon costs too much for what it does, and Juggernaught is for sure one of the most cost-efficient jacks in the game, but again those are single models problems, so I think that are things that should be discussed into CID when their turn comes out more than be used to make comparisons between Hordes and Warmachine. Ok. Behemoth is hitting Typhon at dice +3 every punch. Typhon is hitting Behemoth at dice -3 every bite. Behemoth on Average (Mat 7 vs Def 13) dice kills Typhon through excessive healing with only 4 punches. Typhon with all 8 attacks failes to kill Behemoth by 4 damage. I'm not sure your math is right. I ran the numbers in excel on average dice, no boosting, assuming no support aside from having enough focus/fury to get the max number of attacks and the expected damage output of Behemoth just walking up and punching is just a smidgen (0.04 points of damage) under what you need to kill if you don't boost on and Typhon has excessive healing up. What do you mean by "average dice" -- are you taking the assumption that you always roll a seven, or are you adding up all the points on the probability curve. Because this is a case where the expected results when you simplify to "average dice means I always roll seven" and the actual expected value of damage output are fairly close for Typhon vs Behemoth, but very different for Behemoth vs Typhon -- as anyone whose game plan has hinged on an unboosted six or seven to hit can tell you.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 30, 2017 15:56:24 GMT
(I could run various permutations of boosting attack and damage though and see what the ideal strategy is, but usually when you're hitting dice+, no boosting damage is the optimal strategy)
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 16:19:46 GMT
Ok. Behemoth is hitting Typhon at dice +3 every punch. Typhon is hitting Behemoth at dice -3 every bite. Behemoth on Average (Mat 7 vs Def 13) dice kills Typhon through excessive healing with only 4 punches. Typhon with all 8 attacks failes to kill Behemoth by 4 damage. I'm not sure your math is right. I ran the numbers in excel on average dice, no boosting, assuming no support aside from having enough focus/fury to get the max number of attacks and the expected damage output of Behemoth just walking up and punching is just a smidgen (0.04 points of damage) under what you need to kill if you don't boost on and Typhon has excessive healing up. What do you mean by "average dice" -- are you taking the assumption that you always roll a seven, or are you adding up all the points on the probability curve. Because this is a case where the expected results when you simplify to "average dice means I always roll seven" and the actual expected value of damage output are fairly close for Typhon vs Behemoth, but very different for Behemoth vs Typhon -- as anyone whose game plan has hinged on an unboosted six or seven to hit can tell you. I understand the odds are more complicated. I don't have the capability at the moment to go through the full range. I was just going with assumption of 7s to hit and damage. It's crud and not accurate enough. But it's what I can do off the top of my head while doing other work. also sorry, but .04 damage can just be rounded down to 0. We can't do fractional damage. I know there is legitimacy in percentage calculations to get exact points like that. but come on...Behemoth still kills Typhon through EH.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 30, 2017 16:22:35 GMT
Oddsmachine says Typhon (walking, 8 attacks, no boosts) has a ~27% chance of killing Behemoth.
It doesn't have a feature for auto healing.
If Typhon did not have excessive healing up, and Behemoth attacks (walking, 5 attacks, no boosting), he has a 66.5% of killing Typhon.
Now, with Oddsmachine, I can give Typhon an extra 2 extra boxes for each attack (since 2 is average for a d3). This is not an accurate way to account for excessive healing. Excessive healing rolls vary from 1-3, and only happen after damage. Keep that in mind, and we can use this as a marker for best case scenario.
That calculation gives Behemoth a 33% chance of killing Typhon.
So, with actual excessive healing up, the chance to kill Typhon is somewhere in between 33% and 66.5%. Regardless, it's a much better chance than Typhon's at killing Behemoth. If someone can find a more exact answer, I'd be interested.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 16:25:39 GMT
Ok. Behemoth is hitting Typhon at dice +3 every punch. Typhon is hitting Behemoth at dice -3 every bite. Behemoth on Average (Mat 7 vs Def 13) dice kills Typhon through excessive healing with only 4 punches. Typhon with all 8 attacks failes to kill Behemoth by 4 damage. I understand the odds are more complicated. I don't have the capability at the moment to go through the full range. I was just going with assumption of 7s to hit and damage. It's crud and not accurate enough. But it's what I can do off the top of my head while doing other work. also sorry, but .04 damage can just be rounded down to 0. We can't do fractional damage. I know there is legitimacy in percentage calculations to get exact points like that. but come on...Behemoth still kills Typhon through EH. I think your math is a bit off... I have ran the fight into OddMachines and Behemoth has only 46% chance to kill the Typhon if Hyper Regeneration is up (with all 5 attacks). And that consing that: 1) Behemoth costs 1 point more 2) Typhon moves faster so will probably have the alpha. 3) Typhon is a beast (so, as we agreed before, should not have equal combat capabilities than equally costed jacks, let alone more expensive ones). You are comparing a cheaper beast with a more expensive jack, that still doesn't kill it on averange (comes close, but fails more than it succeeds at it) even if it somehow gets the alpha (when the beast has advantage on that), so what should that prove?
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