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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 16:27:16 GMT
Use buy or Boost People. From what I gathered, the odds are 24% death of Typhon on Behemoth, and 39% death of Behemoth on Typhon with Excessive healing.
Regardless I'm not sure what this proves really.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 30, 2017 16:30:50 GMT
Ok. Behemoth is hitting Typhon at dice +3 every punch. Typhon is hitting Behemoth at dice -3 every bite. Behemoth on Average (Mat 7 vs Def 13) dice kills Typhon through excessive healing with only 4 punches. Typhon with all 8 attacks failes to kill Behemoth by 4 damage. I understand the odds are more complicated. I don't have the capability at the moment to go through the full range. I was just going with assumption of 7s to hit and damage. It's crud and not accurate enough. But it's what I can do off the top of my head while doing other work. also sorry, but .04 damage can just be rounded down to 0. We can't do fractional damage. I know there is legitimacy in percentage calculations to get exact points like that. but come on...Behemoth still kills Typhon through EH. I think your math is a bit off... I have ran the fight into OddMachines and Behemoth has only 46% chance to kill the Typhon if Hyper Regeneration is up (with all 5 attacks). And that consing that: 1) Behemoth costs 1 point more 2) Typhon moves faster so will probably have the alpha. 3) Typhon is a beast and so has beast advantages. You are comparing a cheaper beast with a more expensive jack, that still doesn't kill it on averange even if it somehow gets the alpha (when the beast has advantage on that), so what should that prove? A beast that's also better at dealing with infantry, fwiw.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 30, 2017 16:31:52 GMT
Not that is really matters since despite both having decent melee capacity neither Typhon or Behemoth should be in melee. Both of them are ranged pieces. And it's horses for courses then, Typhon is an infantry butcher, Behemoth is better into hard targets.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 16:34:06 GMT
Ok. Behemoth is hitting Typhon at dice +3 every punch. Typhon is hitting Behemoth at dice -3 every bite. Behemoth on Average (Mat 7 vs Def 13) dice kills Typhon through excessive healing with only 4 punches. Typhon with all 8 attacks failes to kill Behemoth by 4 damage. I understand the odds are more complicated. I don't have the capability at the moment to go through the full range. I was just going with assumption of 7s to hit and damage. It's crud and not accurate enough. But it's what I can do off the top of my head while doing other work. also sorry, but .04 damage can just be rounded down to 0. We can't do fractional damage. I know there is legitimacy in percentage calculations to get exact points like that. but come on...Behemoth still kills Typhon through EH. I think your math is a bit off... I have ran the fight into OddMachines and Behemoth has only 46% chance to kill the Typhon if Hyper Regeneration is up (with all 5 attacks). And that consing that: 1) Behemoth costs 1 point more 2) Typhon moves faster so will probably have the alpha. 3) Typhon is a beast and so has beast advantages. You are comparing a cheaper beast with a more expensive jack, that still doesn't kill it on averange even if it somehow gets the alpha (when the beast has advantage on that), so what should that prove? Really?! 1) Behemoth has a much longer range gun with Powerful attack! 2) Behemoth doesn't frenzy 3) Behemoth has more armor and hit boxes 4) Behemoth is Red! 5) You are being pedantic. Nothing will satisfy you. Just stop...
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 16:39:17 GMT
I think your math is a bit off... I have ran the fight into OddMachines and Behemoth has only 46% chance to kill the Typhon if Hyper Regeneration is up (with all 5 attacks). And that consing that: 1) Behemoth costs 1 point more 2) Typhon moves faster so will probably have the alpha. 3) Typhon is a beast (so, as we agreed before, should not have equal combat capabilities than equally costed jacks, let alone more expensive ones). You are comparing a cheaper beast with a more expensive jack, that still doesn't kill it on averange even if it somehow gets the alpha (when the beast has advantage on that), so what should that prove? Really?! 1) Behemoth has a much longer range gun with Powerful attack! 2) Behemoth doesn't frenzy 3) Behemoth has more armor and hit boxes 4) Behemoth is Red! 5) You are being pedantic. Nothing will satisfy you. Just stop... I agree. Behemoth being Red makes it clearly superior! I'll back off.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 16:40:45 GMT
Could it be argued that you, ForEver-Blight could never be happy either?
Honestly just raise the POW of its bites by 1. The end.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 30, 2017 16:43:19 GMT
I was just going with assumption of 7s to hit and damage. It's crud and not accurate enough. But it's what I can do off the top of my head while doing other work. also sorry, but .04 damage can just be rounded down to 0. We can't do fractional damage. I know there is legitimacy in percentage calculations to get exact points like that. but come on...Behemoth still kills Typhon through EH. Yes, a tiny smidgen under 50% of the time, Behemoth kills Typhon. Of course, there are other things to consider, such as the fact that if Behemoth fails to kill Typhon (which happens half the time), Typhon will be at full capacity next turn and if Typhon fails to kill Behemoth, Behemoth will likely be missing systems and not at full effectiveness (not to mention other things like differences in point cost, speed, available support, fury vs focus, spray vs bombards, etc...) Anyways, I think part of the problem when you simplify your analysis to always rolling 7s, your calculations are going to be biased towards higher numbers for Khador -- you're ignoring the fact that Typhon hits Behemoth 97.2% of the time and Behemoth hits Typhon only 72.2% of the time. So, it's no surprise that an analysis which is simplified in such a way that it ignores the strengths of model A and the weaknesses of model B will end up with the conclusion that model B is more powerful than model A. And, due to the properties of Khador jacks, these sorts of simplified mathematical analyses count only Khador jacks' strengths (base POW and ARM) but not their weaknesses (low DEF and SPD) and end up exhibiting a huge bias for/against (depending on your perspective) Khador.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 16:52:12 GMT
THEN DROP IT! Just forget it. Not a dam one of you have posted the same percentage from the same calculation app. Something or someone is wrong.
But it doesn't matter. Nothing is a fair comparison to some of you.
I can list a million and one pieces of evidence, dozens of games experience. But it's all pointless. I compare it to something cheaper and more powerful in melee; "not fair!" I compare it to something more expensive and more powerful at range and in melee "Not Fair!!". Both of which are leaps and bonds better arm/boxes.
Just throw the god forsaken game out the window. There can be no balance if nothing can be objectively compared.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 16:56:04 GMT
THEN DROP IT! Just forget it. Not a dam one of you have posted the same percentage from the same calculation app. Something or someone is wrong. Actually, we used different apps and odds. If you find the Typhon sub par I believe you. Get it buffed if it needs to be. But im not sure how that's the Behemoths or Juggernaughts Fault.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 17:04:42 GMT
THEN DROP IT! Just forget it. Not a dam one of you have posted the same percentage from the same calculation app. Something or someone is wrong. But it doesn't matter. Nothing is a fair comparison to some of you. I can list a million and one pieces of evidence, dozens of games experience. But it's all pointless. I compare it to something cheaper and more powerful in melee; "not fair!" I compare it to something more expensive and more powerful at range and in melee "Not Fair!!". Both of which are leaps and bonds better arm/boxes. Just throw the god forsaken game out the window. There can be no balance if nothing can be objectively compared. Aren't you maybe getting a little too emotional on that? Why we should the ones throwing the game out of the window if we are the ones who say that the game is fine and you are the one who says that instead there is something wrong? If your point is "Typhon needs some love", than most of us said "Ok, fair, talk about it with devs when Legion CID is up". Same would happen if your point is that a particular model is too cheap. Talk about that model when its CID is up. If instead your point is that there is a problem in the beasts VSjacks balance in general, we simply said we do not agree and the points you have tried to bring didn't convinced us (and we explained why). Even then, disagreeing on something happens, why do you get so angry?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 17:06:00 GMT
I was just going with assumption of 7s to hit and damage. It's crud and not accurate enough. But it's what I can do off the top of my head while doing other work. also sorry, but .04 damage can just be rounded down to 0. We can't do fractional damage. I know there is legitimacy in percentage calculations to get exact points like that. but come on...Behemoth still kills Typhon through EH. Yes, a tiny smidgen under 50% of the time, Behemoth kills Typhon. Of course, there are other things to consider, such as the fact that if Behemoth fails to kill Typhon (which happens half the time), Typhon will be at full capacity next turn and if Typhon fails to kill Behemoth, Behemoth will likely be missing systems and not at full effectiveness (not to mention other things like differences in point cost, speed, available support, fury vs focus, spray vs bombards, etc...) Anyways, I think part of the problem when you simplify your analysis to always rolling 7s, your calculations are going to be biased towards higher numbers for Khador -- you're ignoring the fact that Typhon hits Behemoth 97.2% of the time and Behemoth hits Typhon only 72.2% of the time. So, it's no surprise that an analysis which is simplified in such a way that it ignores the strengths of model A and the weaknesses of model B will end up with the conclusion that model B is more powerful than model A. And, due to the properties of Khador jacks, these sorts of simplified mathematical analyses count only Khador jacks' strengths (base POW and ARM) but not their weaknesses (low DEF and SPD) and end up exhibiting a huge bias for/against (depending on your perspective) Khador. I understand. I never claimed to have the percentages or the perfect answer. I'm comparing models in a vacuum as it is impossible to account for every single game situation. No one can do that. I'm ignoring speed because both factions have speed buffs. I'm ignoring str buffs because both have str buffs. Again. You cannot account for everything. Literally I cannot say it enough time I'm looking to make a discussion. Not a change. not a nerf. not a buff. not a god dam soufflé. A discussion on discrepancies I face when a 24 point model fails to kill a 12 point model. But a 12 point model on average kills a 24 point model. Nothing less than my 24 point model has a chance of surviving (Carniveans, Neraphs, Angels, etc...) What I was TRYING to do was find the best thing I can put forward for comparisons. Typhon is literally the top beast I can put into a comparison of stats. I was trying to show what I get for 24 points against what other factions can field at 10-14 points. And how that is a problem I face. Lets compare Mat 6 Def 11 Carnvean to Behemoth and Juggernaut? What are the numbers there? I was giving legion the best advantage. I was told that I couldn't compare Typhon to a Juggernaut. So I picked Behemoth. Then I was told I couldn't compare those and that I'm slanting my argument in my favor. What do you want me to compare? and how. What would make a satisfying, competent, and unbiased discussion?
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Post by pangurban on Jun 30, 2017 17:11:42 GMT
Yes, a tiny smidgen under 50% of the time, Behemoth kills Typhon. Of course, there are other things to consider, such as the fact that if Behemoth fails to kill Typhon (which happens half the time), Typhon will be at full capacity next turn and if Typhon fails to kill Behemoth, Behemoth will likely be missing systems and not at full effectiveness (not to mention other things like differences in point cost, speed, available support, fury vs focus, spray vs bombards, etc...) Anyways, I think part of the problem when you simplify your analysis to always rolling 7s, your calculations are going to be biased towards higher numbers for Khador -- you're ignoring the fact that Typhon hits Behemoth 97.2% of the time and Behemoth hits Typhon only 72.2% of the time. So, it's no surprise that an analysis which is simplified in such a way that it ignores the strengths of model A and the weaknesses of model B will end up with the conclusion that model B is more powerful than model A. And, due to the properties of Khador jacks, these sorts of simplified mathematical analyses count only Khador jacks' strengths (base POW and ARM) but not their weaknesses (low DEF and SPD) and end up exhibiting a huge bias for/against (depending on your perspective) Khador. I understand. I never claimed to have the percentages or the perfect answer. I'm comparing models in a vacuum as it is impossible to account for every single game situation. No one can do that. I'm ignoring speed because both factions have speed buffs. I'm ignoring str buffs because both have str buffs. Again. You cannot account for everything. Literally I cannot say it enough time I'm looking to make a discussion. Not a change. not a nerf. not a buff. not a god dam soufflé. A discussion on discrepancies I face when a 24 point model fails to kill a 12 point model. But a 12 point model on average kills a 24 point model. Nothing less than my 24 point model has a chance of surviving (Carniveans, Neraphs, Angels, etc...) What I was TRYING to do was find the best thing I can put forward for comparisons. Typhon is literally the top beast I can put into a comparison of stats. I was trying to show what I get for 24 points against what other factions can field at 10-14 points. And how that is a problem I face. Lets compare Mat 6 Def 11 Carnvean to Behemoth and Juggernaut? What are the numbers there? I was giving legion the best advantage. I was told that I couldn't compare Typhon to a Juggernaut. So I picked Behemoth. Then I was told I couldn't compare those and that I'm slanting my argument in my favor. What do you want me to compare? and how. What would make a satisfying, competent, and unbiased discussion? Can we maybe begin by accepting there are no straightforward comparisons to make? Different factions, different systems, and models that are at most superficially similar. Comparisons at the model level are pointless.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 17:12:46 GMT
And whats the end goal of that discussion. Otherwise, it's like saying "Boy the sky sure is blue".
Is your point that "Man I wish that legions cheaper beasts hit at least a little bit harder". Id say sure.
Its the difference between a focused complaint and "This sucks".
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 17:13:54 GMT
THEN DROP IT! Just forget it. Not a dam one of you have posted the same percentage from the same calculation app. Something or someone is wrong. But it doesn't matter. Nothing is a fair comparison to some of you. I can list a million and one pieces of evidence, dozens of games experience. But it's all pointless. I compare it to something cheaper and more powerful in melee; "not fair!" I compare it to something more expensive and more powerful at range and in melee "Not Fair!!". Both of which are leaps and bonds better arm/boxes. Just throw the god forsaken game out the window. There can be no balance if nothing can be objectively compared. Aren't you maybe getting a little too emotional on that? Why we should the ones throwing the game out of the window if we are the ones who say that the game is fine and you are the one who says that instead there is something wrong? If your point is "Typhon needs some love", than most of us said "Ok, fair, talk about it with devs when Legion CID is up". Same would happen if your point is that a particular model is too cheap. Talk about that model when its CID is up. If instead your point is that there is a problem in the beasts VSjacks balance in general, we simply said we do not agree and the points you have tried to bring didn't convinced us (and we explained why). Even then, disagreeing on something happens, why do you get so angry? That has never and will never be my point. If you would check you bias and stop making up crap I never said, then maybe we could get some where. I am not asking for change. I'm not griping things are over powered. I am stating observations and numbers that a discrepancy does exists. Not that it needs to go away! Just that it exists. That's all. The resounding response is, as you say, that there is not imbalance. What I'm trying to do is say that, point for point, stat for stat. There is. That's all. Not that I am for or against. You can admit that beast have a stat and point disadvantage but ALSO have an advantage in things such as healing and fury. I've never discounted beast having advantages. Yes, if Typhon survives he can be made fully functional. I never said he couldn't. I never said that it didn't factor into why Typhon is 24 points.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 17:18:47 GMT
I am stating observations and numbers that a discrepancy does exists. Its like saying "Your apartment is messy". You kinda imply you want it changed.
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