|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 22, 2017 20:25:07 GMT
Pretty sure the Dragonfather has been around for a long time. But how long? Oh wait he existed before the Orgoth so he couldn't have been CAUSED by the event. Well nevermind. Anyway whatever the answer is, its going to be allot more complicated then just "Elves had their gods stolen"
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 22, 2017 20:43:33 GMT
When did toruk make the other dragons? Maybe he grabbed the elven gods and made them into dragons cause he was lonely and 2 escaped
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 22, 2017 21:42:25 GMT
Toruk Kidnapped the Elven Gods I actually doubt he did.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 22, 2017 23:05:06 GMT
On Khadoran's like Harkevich willing to use Cryx scale tech in a war there is an interesting precedence.
General von Falkenheyn was in charge of the German army at the start of the First World War and the Khadorans are pretty analogous to the Germans at this point of history in their culture, quite authoritarian with a strong military culture and a notion that treaties aren't really that important. When von Falkenheyn was asked how to make a war better, he said "Make it short". He was of the view that a war could be as heinous and brutal as it needed to be in order to make the war end as quickly as possible.
This is why the Germans were perfectly fine with using gas as a weapon and unrestricted submarine warfare, this is why Falkenheyn's replacement, general Ludendorf, was perfectly fine with creating km's long dead zones and battles who's express purpose was to kill the maximum amount of enemy soldiers. Their goal was to deal such a wicked hammerblow that the war would end right there and now.
Khadorans are Patriots, their system generally involves a lot of devotion and respect for authority (Authoritarian regimes do that) and Harkevich was following the same logic as Falkenheyn, its perfectly fine to use a chemical superweapon that kills your opponents in a horrible way because at least it stops the battle dragging on, because the only thing worse than a lot of soldiers dying to gas is a lot of civilians starving and eating each other over a protracted siege.
And honestly? I don't know who I would side with in that moral debate. Brutal and short or fair and long? Hard to say because there are pros and cons to both strategies.
|
|
princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
|
Post by princeraven on Jun 23, 2017 0:49:25 GMT
Toruk has been around since before recorded history and created the other dragons in 3500 BR, Thamar gave humans the Gift around 150 BR. The Rivening happened in 140 BR.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Jun 23, 2017 1:00:41 GMT
I'm pretty sure Toruk has been here since intelligent life came to Immoren
|
|
princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
|
Post by princeraven on Jun 23, 2017 2:03:21 GMT
It is claimed that the athanc was the first living thing in all of Caen.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 23, 2017 9:28:44 GMT
I'm pretty sure Toruk has been here since intelligent life came to Immoren Toruk is the intelligent life coming to Immoren Either way he made the other dragons from shards of his own heart stone, not from Elven gods.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 12:36:37 GMT
On Khadoran's like Harkevich willing to use Cryx scale tech in a war there is an interesting precedence. Except it made no sense at all in my mind. A dangerous chemical weapon that is uncontrolled and Khador had apparently no way to cope with (Otherwise Magnus setting it off wouldn't have had much effect on the Khadorans), and would still leave the exit "Blocked" if its a gas that stays in place for a long time, or would delay the enemy only for a VERY short time if it drifted away fast. Or bomb the bridge so that the Cygnarians can't cross or carry over ANY of their highly sensitive and not waterproof equipment. Again its the fact that it makes no sense strategy wise, and only exists for a Cygnar to remain as spotless as possible is what bothers me. Even Khadors most nicest are Firetrucking monsters in comparison to Cygnars is the story that PP wants to tell apparently. Harkevitch Jobbing for Cygnar didn't bug me (Siege Jobbed for the Butcher). Its the "No, they have to be MAXIMUM evil". Magnus couldn't have brought those chemical weapons with him. NO, they have to be Khadoran first and then used against them.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 12:50:41 GMT
On Khadoran's like Harkevich willing to use Cryx scale tech in a war there is an interesting precedence. Except it made no sense at all in my mind. A dangerous chemical weapon that is uncontrolled and Khador had apparently no way to cope with (Otherwise Magnus setting it off wouldn't have had much effect on the Khadorans), and would still leave the exit "Blocked" if its a gas that stays in place for a long time, or would delay the enemy only for a VERY short time if it drifted away fast. Or bomb the bridge so that the Cygnarians can't cross or carry over ANY of their highly sensitive and not waterproof equipment. Again its the fact that it makes no sense strategy wise, and only exists for a Cygnar to remain as spotless as possible is what bothers me. Even Khadors most nicest are Firetrucking monsters in comparison to Cygnars is the story that PP wants to tell apparently. Harkevitch Jobbing for Cygnar didn't bug me (Siege Jobbed for the Butcher). Its the "No, they have to be MAXIMUM evil". Magnus couldn't have brought those chemical weapons with him. NO, they have to be Khadoran first and then used against them. If Harkevich wanted to make sure that the people didn't suffer then destroying a bridge which is their main link to the world isn't a great idea. Saving yourself to starve to death is a bad idea. Harkevich wanted to project a maximum amount of 'don't Firetruck with me' by being brutal. It makes perfect sense and happened a lot of the time in the world. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, but its a tactic that plenty of people have used. I'm not sure but why can't Cygnar bring over troops over a destroyed bridge? They aren't vampires and not every jack is Thunderhead. I mean if an Ironclad can't cross a river then neither can a Juggernaut as the underlying machinery is functionally identical. Khadorans are authoritarians and keep on backstabbing people as soon as they gain any advantage. It's pretty in character for them. Khador isn't a nice place, the empress doesn't love you.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 12:57:30 GMT
If Harkevich wanted to make sure that the people didn't suffer then destroying a bridge which is their main link to the world isn't a great idea. Saving yourself to starve to death is a bad idea. So how would a gas attack do that? Unless ALL of the Cygnarian forces were concentrated on the bridge (Must have been a MASSIVE bridge), it would have killed some, the gas dissipates and they march forward. How would they control its travel? It's not a spontaneous thing. They mined the bridge with the gas. If they wind blew the wrong way it would have murdered them all! Yes. And Khadoran Jacks can't march through water. If they needed to cross they would need boats that Harkevitch could just bombard which is his specialty. But its not supposed to be kittenstabbingly evil. Evil for the sake of evil is Cryxes and Everblights deal. At least Khador could be pragmatic in its evil applications. Being so evil you do things that make no sense is what bothers me.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Jun 23, 2017 20:21:39 GMT
Yeah, Toruk was one of the first sentient things to go around on Caen. It's still unclear if it was originated on it or if he is a sort of alien creature from another world.
The dragons were made by Toruk himself, fragmenting his own Athank because he felt lonely.
The problem was that, after a bit, the Dragons stopped to serve Toruk and began to do what they wanted, so Toruk (also scared because the combination of all his child dragons was stronger than him) began to eat them back to restore his unity.
The Dragons made a coalition and actually drove Toruk back, that hided on the Sharde islands to plot slowly on how to get back his athanc pieces (the whole purpose of Cryx is actually to conquer the world to give Toruk both valuable information on where the Dragons are and an advantage in fighting them).
At the moment, the two coalitions (Toruk vs everyone else) are pretty much even, and so the Dragons hide because they have no chance if Toruk finds them alone, and Toruk hides since if he was too easily found the other dragons could regroup and attack him all together.
Wrath of the Dragonfather actually talks about one skirmish where Toruk commits into action to recover a big piece of his Athank, and the other Dragons come out to avoid it (since if Toruk gets more powerful than how it is now, he would be able to stand even against all them united and so it will be the end of all dragons and the whole Caen).
The elven Gods disappearing is a recent thing (Just few centuries), pretty much exactly coinciding with the Gift of Magic being donated to humans by Thamar, and that curious coincidence in time is exactly the main "proof" Retribution uses to justify their claim that the death of the elven gods is caused by human mages.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Jun 23, 2017 22:58:37 GMT
If Harkevich wanted to make sure that the people didn't suffer then destroying a bridge which is their main link to the world isn't a great idea. Saving yourself to starve to death is a bad idea. So how would a gas attack do that? Unless ALL of the Cygnarian forces were concentrated on the bridge (Must have been a MASSIVE bridge), it would have killed some, the gas dissipates and they march forward. How would they control its travel? It's not a spontaneous thing. They mined the bridge with the gas. If they wind blew the wrong way it would have murdered them all! Yes. And Khadoran Jacks can't march through water. If they needed to cross they would need boats that Harkevitch could just bombard which is his specialty. But its not supposed to be kittenstabbingly evil. Evil for the sake of evil is Cryxes and Everblights deal. At least Khador could be pragmatic in its evil applications. Being so evil you do things that make no sense is what bothers me. It was, indeed, a very big and long bridge, so the casuality on Cygnar would have been catastrofic if Harkevich plan worked, and indeed destroying the bridge would cause very big troumbles to the population, since it was the only exit or entrance from the city. That said, i agree that it was badly out of character. Strakhov or Zerkova would probably do that... Even Irusk maybe, being very pragmatic (stretching it), but not Harkevich, a man that Stryker himself (in the same book) thinks that he is so like-minded to him that they could have become friends if they weren't on the opposite sides of a bitter war. P.S.: Just a little detail. The gas wasn't Cryxian. It was made by the alchemist of the Golden Crucible, but banned almost immediatly because it was too cruel to be used even against enemies. Apparently, the city Harkevich was defending had a deposit with some of it hidden by the alchemist instead of destroying it, and Harckevich found it and decided to use it.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 24, 2017 0:04:25 GMT
So how would a gas attack do that? Unless ALL of the Cygnarian forces were concentrated on the bridge (Must have been a MASSIVE bridge), it would have killed some, the gas dissipates and they march forward. How would they control its travel? It's not a spontaneous thing. They mined the bridge with the gas. If they wind blew the wrong way it would have murdered them all! Yes. And Khadoran Jacks can't march through water. If they needed to cross they would need boats that Harkevitch could just bombard which is his specialty. But its not supposed to be kittenstabbingly evil. Evil for the sake of evil is Cryxes and Everblights deal. At least Khador could be pragmatic in its evil applications. Being so evil you do things that make no sense is what bothers me. It was, indeed, a very big and long bridge, so the casuality on Cygnar would have been catastrofic if Harkevich plan worked, and indeed destroying the bridge would cause very big troumbles to the population, since it was the only exit or entrance from the city. That said, i agree that it was badly out of character. Strakhov or Zerkova would probably do that... Even Irusk maybe, being very pragmatic (stretching it), but not Harkevich, a man that Stryker himself (in the same book) thinks that he is so like-minded to him that they could have become friends if they weren't on the opposite sides of a bitter war. P.S.: Just a little detail. The gas wasn't Cryxian. It was made by the alchemist of the Golden Crucible, but banned almost immediatly because it was too cruel to be used even against enemies. Apparently, the city Harkevich was defending had a deposit with some of it hidden by the alchemist instead of destroying it, and Harckevich found it and decided to use it. I would like to point out that it wasn't the only entrance to the city. It was the way to cross the river into cygnar occupied territory. There was another entrance on the other side of the city. You know the side of the city with the big city gate and the breach in the wall. YOU KNOW THE SIDE OF THE CITY THAT THE SECOND BIG BATTLE WHERE VLAD CAME WITH ALL THE HORSES TOOK PLACE. yeah that side of the city that had the roads that led to the khadoran supply lines. You know the supply lines that made it so that the city couldn't be beseiged and just starved into submission. Like no. They could have destroyed the bridge just fine and just sat there biting their thumbs at the cygnarans all day. Instead of making it a choke point for a massive killing.
|
|
princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
|
Post by princeraven on Jun 24, 2017 0:57:18 GMT
The elven Gods disappearing is a recent thing (Just few centuries), pretty much exactly coinciding with the Gift of Magic being donated to humans by Thamar, and that curious coincidence in time is exactly the main "proof" Retribution uses to justify their claim that the death of the elven gods is caused by human mages. "Exactly coinciding" meaning "Happened an entire decade afterwards" but let's not let facts get in the way of a good crusade of human extermination.
|
|