|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 16, 2017 11:59:40 GMT
When the protectorate collapses into civil war i feel all your "obviously menoth supports the sociopaths" theory is gonna fall apart a little bit. Probably. Then Il say "Well Done story arc". Hopefully Khador seems to be positioned into a similar situation as the nation asks itself "How truly desperate are we to win?"
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 16, 2017 12:11:39 GMT
Here's an even wilder theory. What if menoth dislikes the way the protectorate is run cause weird god reasons. He sends the harbinger and gives her visions of who she needs to save and whose unwavering allegience to get (ToM).so that she has a coalition of faithful around her. Then when all is ready he sends visions to tristan and let's sevy die and sparks the civil war. His ultimate goal is for harbinger to be the ultimate victor with her coalition of faithful so that he can lead the protectorate directly using hey as a mouthpiece. That way no more straying from the path for anyone. Edit: my bad i forgot spoilers exist
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Jun 16, 2017 12:38:18 GMT
Edited for spoilers.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 16, 2017 15:25:10 GMT
The IK fluff constantly describes how the Protectorate converts or pulls back menits by showing off their Powers. It does. But the IKRPG is also quite clear that it is not only priests of menoth from the Protectorate who manifest special abilities. In fact, there is no difference (mechanically) between Protectorate (i.e. sul-menite) priests and those from Khador, Ord or Cygnar. We haven't seen them in game because Menite priests are not incorporated into the military as priests in other factions. There are also the difficulties that if you take the extreme view that there is no god but Menoth (part of the True Law), how do Menites explain the magical abilities of Morrowan priests? Dismissing Morrowan abilities as magic but Menite abilities as miracles is convincing, but probably only when preaching to the choir. For the more thoughtful and informed non-Protectorate menites, there are also difficulties in that Protectorate priests seem to manifest their spells using the same system of runes as other human arcane (not directly divine) traditions, a system developed by a Thamarite scion and then a Morrowan ascendant. And that's not evne considering how the Protectorate is clearly willing to adopt non-divine magic when convenient, adding a layer of blessings over the top. This paragraph isn't going to make a difference to the basic man in the street directly, but it certainly provides ammunition for the sophisticated theological argument which might then trickle down to some extent.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 17:03:25 GMT
but probably only when preaching to the choir. HA!
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 16, 2017 17:17:44 GMT
Yeah i kind of wish both ikrpg and warmahordes diffirentiated between divine magic and arcane magic. Cause examples of divine magic exist and it could be c cool to have 2 different types of warcasters (divine vs arcane) where Harby would be divine and feora arcane and would open up a bunch of #desognspace. And would make the game a whole lot more interesting.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Jun 16, 2017 17:27:36 GMT
There are also the difficulties that if you take the extreme view that there is no god but Menoth (part of the True Law), how do Menites explain the magical abilities of Morrowan priests? Dismissing Morrowan abilities as magic but Menite abilities as miracles is convincing, but probably only when preaching to the choir. That is not what that portion of the True Law says. It's not "There is no god but Menoth", it's "There is no god above Menoth" There are other gods, and humans are allowed to worship them. But all humans are obligated to venerate Menoth above all others. Also, there is complete consensus that there are 2 types of "magic". Divine and Arcane. Divine Magic are miracles granted to priests and devout followers by their diety. Arcane Magic is magic associated with "the gift", an innate ability to tap magical energy. This type of magic is seen as corrupting by strict Menite doctrine, though it can be purified and tolerated to a certain degree. There isn't a explicit litmus test for telling the difference between the two types, and either can be confused for the other. A priest could have natural arcane talent, but because he is also a devout individual he also would be drawing on some divine power. Thus leading to a blurred line.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Jun 16, 2017 17:33:01 GMT
Yeah i kind of wish both ikrpg and warmahordes diffirentiated between divine magic and arcane magic. Cause examples of divine magic exist and it could be c cool to have 2 different types of warcasters (divine vs arcane) where Harby would be divine and feora arcane and would open up a bunch of #desognspace. And would make the game a whole lot more interesting. They are differentiated between. But there isn't a surefire way of telling the difference. But we do know that Divine and Arcane magic are different. We know this because there was a time when the only people who could use magic were Priests of the various gods, for thousands of years this was the case. Then later, the phenomenon known as "The Gift" occurred and humans began to appear who had innate magical powers unrelated to devout belief in a god. In the few hundred years since this, this new arcane magic has become the most common type. And since the spells of arcane and divine magic have some significant overlap it's no longer possible to be 100% sure which is which all the time. Some spells are obviously one or the other, but others are less clear cut. That said, your idea would be pretty cool.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Jun 16, 2017 18:06:24 GMT
Good conversation here.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned though is that Menoth doesn't just want souls he wants WARRIOR souls. The better a soldier and fighter you become the more valuable you are to Menoth in the battle against the Wurm. The battle with the Wurm is everything and the quality of life for humans on Caen means very little. As such Menoth has a direct motive in ensuring that there is always conflict since war breeds better and better warriors
It would probably be a very simple matter for Menoth to give enough assistance to the Protectorate allowing them to conquer all of Western Immoren but then the conflict would die down and you'd have a race of peaceful philosophers develop. Instead he pits Cygnar against the Protectorate, against Khador and any other benign (to him) enemies that can be found. Since there are Menites on all sides of that conflict he wins as great warriors are sent to him through death in the resulting battles.
Long story short for Menoth, if it ain't broke don't fix it. This all supports the greater goal of keeping a world devouring monster at bay so that creation can exist. This is a pretty noble goal in and of itself and should be considered greater than the concerns of mortals on Caen.
The only way to truly judge Menoth would be to see how he treats humanity if the Wurm was ever truly defeated (but I think that too would destroy the planet if you're willing to listen to the filthy tree hugging druids).
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 16, 2017 20:02:04 GMT
Like i understand there is a fluff difference but i want like a mechanical in game difference. Like divine casters having a once per game miracle instead of a feat.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 20:09:25 GMT
Like i understand there is a fluff difference but i want like a mechanical in game difference. Like divine casters having a once per game miracle instead of a feat. I'd rather see a separate spell that doesn't cost focus. but it would be a huge hurdle to balance that.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 17, 2017 4:09:11 GMT
We know this because there was a time when the only people who could use magic were Priests of the various gods, for thousands of years this was the case. Then later, the phenomenon known as "The Gift" occurred and humans began to appear who had innate magical powers unrelated to devout belief in a god. In the few hundred years since this, this new arcane magic has become the most common type. And since the spells of arcane and divine magic have some significant overlap it's no longer possible to be 100% sure which is which all the time. Some spells are obviously one or the other, but others are less clear cut. That said, your idea would be pretty cool. That's not entirely correct, or at least questionable: (1) The Circle was using magic before the gift. While this might relate to their use of the Wurm, it doesn't seem likely that the Wurm was directly intervening to provide miracles as a conscious choice - the Wurm seems more a primal force than a god in that sense. Certain casters also seem to use Circle magic without remaining Wurm worshippers (Old Witch seems to know some of their tricks, Gaspy used to be a Druid, which might explain his teleportation abilities after he became an Iron Liche). (2) Necromancy is clearly not divine magic, but appears to have been possible before the Gift. (3) Morrdh, with Everblight's assistance, was able to make magical weapons, as were the Orgoth. (4) Thamar, before her ascension, learned all kinds of magic. She was clearly an exceptional individual, but I don't think it is claimed anywhere that she was a god before she ascended. (5) It's hinted that infernalism can be a way to obtain magical abilities. But infernals are (arguably) not gods in the IK Cosmology, although they might have to be regarded as cosmic beings. (6) For some of these points (Necromany, Morrdh/Orgoth and Infernals) it might be that doing certain things in a certain way has magical consequences. This may fit with what appears to be the magical nature of Caen itself - while the Circle seems to see using leylines to teleport as a form of magic, for the Convergence it's science. I think it's arguable that in fact there isn't a difference between divine and arcane magic. If priests could manifest certain magic at will, that looks less like a miracle granted by the god, and more like esoteric knowledge they can regularly apply. The alternative is to say 'my god has given me power', but otherwise does not intervene. But then what is to stop an arcanist claiming exactly the same (their power is a gift from [insert deity here]). Who's to say that isn't what some feats are? There's a valuable ambiguity in the game's background which leads to interesting discussions (and IK cosmology is actually very interesting compared to many fantasy settings). Better to keep the ambiguity (which some factions/individuals exploit in the background) and not tie the mechanics too closely to something that isn't required. I also have an objection to the idea of regularly manifestable 'miracles', but that comes from too much time reading medieval theology.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Jun 17, 2017 5:10:39 GMT
Circle magic is classified as Divine magic. It's source is the Devourer Wyrm.
You are correct that there are other types of magic unrelated to either Divine or Arcane magic. Necromancy being one of them, it's origins are from Toruk. Orgoth magic was also a unique form of magic, it's origins are unknown, but likely related to the dark beings that the Orgoth worshiped. These things the Orgoth worshiped could possibly be Infernals, though they might be something else.
I think you misunderstand what I mean when I said "the only people who could use magic were priests of various gods". I mean that in the sense that they could use it without outside sources. Humans as a baseline, prior to the Gift, had 0 magic potential. They could only use magic if it was acquired through an outside source. Divine magic being gifted from a god(Menoth, the Wyrm, Toruk, Dhunia, etc...), a pact with an infernal, etc... But the important thing is that none of that magic could be acquired by the person's own innate abilities. The Gift is also heavily implied to be the result of an infernal pact that Thamar made so humans could resist the Orgoth.
Arcane magic on the other hand(The Gift) is a type of magic which is intrinsic to certain humans at birth. The Gift essentially gave humans the innate ability to channel magic power without having to have it bestowed on them by some higher power.
It's also correct that magic is somewhat baked into the physical land itself. Moving magic rocks, trees, etc... can have magical repercussions. But that's different from someone having the innate ability to manipulate magic with their mind, which is what the gift is.
Basically early humans could potentially use magic, but they had to either be given or taught it by some higher power. It wasn't a naturally occurring ability for humans. After the gift, humans could now spontaneously have innate magic powers without being taught or gifted it.
|
|
|
Post by Forsaken on Jun 21, 2017 8:54:19 GMT
I feel the true good guys are being overlooked. Clearly the druids of Circle Oroboros are the true good guys of the setting.
Now, I'm sure somebody is going to argue that the blood sacrifice and cannibalism make them bad guys but it's all for the greater good and the ends justify the means people. If not for the druids the Wurm would have long since destroyed Caen or Menoth would have would have "cleansed" it. The druids keep the world in balance and take in lost, ostracized children while doing it. They are the first line of defence against the corruption of nature and oppression of monsters (except the ones they send to die to accomplish their goals). They have a thankless task and are often misunderstood by outsiders but still they persevere in the face of adversity.
They do have problems with political corruption within their ranks and often different druids methods conflict but that's what happens when you have an ancient order that is loosely organized, unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 21, 2017 11:50:19 GMT
Also don't forget the good guy druid eugenics projects.
|
|