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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 15, 2017 12:43:39 GMT
Is Cygnar the Mary Sue faction? Are they the good guys? Is that bad? Find out here.
Purpose of thread: discuss any faction and its moral nature either alone or in comparison to other factions. This discussion should then be used to better understand the nature of the protagonist faction, and the wolves at her gates. Discussion of the literary quality of IK lore is relevant as well. Good guys can be bad characters, and vise versa.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 12:56:11 GMT
Mary Sue is an arbitrary word and kinda impossible by definition (They were always here so they can't be mary sues).
But they are the protagonist faction. I didn't mind having somebody job so that Cygnar had a win (Siege 1 Says hello to the Butchers Axe). And even if it's one of my favorite Harkevitch.
But it bugged me how his character was thrown out the window so he could do the least logical thing (Bombs would have worked BETTER on the Bridge then a dangerous airborne toxin) so that Cygnar could have a clean moral Superiority (Stryker specifically). After that, I just want full evil Khador then.
They are painfully clean, and whatever moral problems they have are usually isolated, and can be directed at "Some Corrupt Noble" or "Shadow Government".
I don't dislike good guys even in morally conflicted settings, but their just so painfully clean and lack any underlying moral problem. And B never SUFFER anything for doing the right thing.
If their so goody two shoes and awesome that they never have to cross the line, and then never suffer anything for crossing that line. Thats what makes them insufferable toast to me.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 15, 2017 12:58:40 GMT
Apart from that time Stryker did religious genocide by burning all the Menites in Caspia.......
But yes, Cygnar are the good guys even though Khador is the nicer place to live.
Don't forget, they created the Protectorate by being complete nasties to the Menites in the first place.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 15, 2017 13:15:41 GMT
The Legion of Everblight promotes unity, everyone has a clear role in the society they are happy with and plays to the strengths of the individual. No one is discriminated against because of things like their gender and race. Additionally, the Legion has the only viable plan in the Iron Kingdoms to eliminate the threat posed by Toruk and his Nightmare Empire of Cryx.
Clearly Legion are the good guys.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 13:16:43 GMT
Apart from that time Stryker did religious genocide by burning all the Menites in Caspia....... Did he actually kill them? A Camp is different from murder. Anyway I would not understand how a Menite could be a cygnarian in the setting. This isn't real life where there isn't some actual person in charge. Menoths Avatar has joined with the Protectorate. The protectorate that burns its own people before it even decided to turn that torture device towards its enemies. They also receive divine visions of weapons (Not cakes). Im pretty sure Menoth is all for this whole "Conquer all of humanity to be unending subservient unquestioning slaves" thing. So In my mind it makes perfect sense to wonder about the allegiance of those that in a pinch might end up siding with the people who would strap me to a rack and then suck on my energy until I explode. Nah Cygnar is also the nicer place to live full with racial harmony, where everybody is accepted and doesn't have to pledge allegiance to live there. That's a sins of the father plot element. Doesn't affect modern cygnar whatsoever as a painfully clean faction.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 15, 2017 13:20:37 GMT
For a Mary Sue faction, what have Cygnar actually accomplished ever in the fictions?
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 15, 2017 13:21:54 GMT
The Legion of Everblight promotes unity, everyone has a clear role in the society they are happy with and plays to the strengths of the individual. No one is discriminated against because of things like their gender and race. Additionally, the Legion has the only viable plan in the Iron Kingdoms to eliminate the threat posed by Toruk and his Nightmare Empire of Cryx. This is true. Every individual is worth exactly the same. One third of a shredder.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 13:23:08 GMT
For a Mary Sue faction, what have Cygnar actually accomplished ever in the fictions? Their not mary sues by definition. Just boring and kinda bland.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 15, 2017 14:55:27 GMT
I remember from the story that the burning down of Menite gathering places in cygnar did take place during that story arc. I don't remember if anyone died but then he did round them up and send them down the v river on rafts. And let me explain to you how people can be a Menite and a Cygnaran. It's cause the protectorate are Firetrucking nuts and sometimes quite evil. Like peaceful menites exist and they just want to practice their religion and spread through conversion not war. Like the protectorate might even be viewed as extremists. So they live in place where they can practice their religion freely (religious freefom ftw) and show a different side to the locals and maybe convert some people. Like menites live in khador just fine avatar or not. Like menoth is a big god. He can send an avatar in one side of the land and give you a miracle to help you peacefully convert. War is not the only bit of his domain. Building is also part of it. And then stryker shows up and claims you're a spy for the protectorate and burns down your temple and sends you down the river. I'm pretty sure a bunch of those people were suddenly "maybe extemism is the right thing."
Like i really wish people have stryker shit about that entire Firetruck up and that it made him cringe internslly and like tries to change the topic.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 16:07:02 GMT
It's cause the protectorate are Firetrucking nuts and sometimes quite evil. And their god who's an actual "I can move things with my will" being is actively and happily supporting them. So, therefore, he doesn't care. After you sent messages for at least a couple of death machines and his divine avatar supports their cause, I'm pretty sure its safe to say he really likes humanity cowering and with no other choice but to worship him. Avatar or no Avatar, Khador had to take INTENSE actions to suppress menites that were rapidly pushing to exit the state and enter the protectorate. Only with FORCE where they quelled. It's not really a religion in our understanding. You can't be an extremist if the god literally wants you to do this, and gives gifts and weapons to the people killing the peaceful menites.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 15, 2017 17:26:01 GMT
Ok lets very things stright here. All that menoth cats about are souls. Get me as many souls as you can i don't care how keep them coming souls souls souls. As a humble practitioner i shouldn't know this but I'm special. So if you pray to him and he thinks you've been getting him enough souls or he thinks you can get him more souls you get a miracle. Doesn't matter who you are. Follow his rules give him the souls and pray to him then he'll give you the stuff. There just happens to be an entire nation of praying fervent people that are forcibly covering people. Their prayers are louder and get heard more so they get an avatar. This small sect in khador doesn't ask for much so they don't get much. Their prayers probably center around converting the new guy in the village. So they get the small miracles. Also menites in khador exist. You can't deny that. They are in your ranks. You can't hide from them. For example when sevy invaded llael. There were like 3 kolduns protecting a city. 2 of them were menites as well. So sevy convinces then that their loyalty to menoth is more important than their loyalty to khador. He also cheated and used some magic and the fact they were conflicted. So even your kolduns have menites in them.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 17:44:46 GMT
Ok lets very things stright here. All that menoth cats about are souls. Exactly. So I would ask any menite in the setting again: How do you reconcile worshipping the God that wants your lifestyle dead, or at least doesn't care about you and only the ones that can get him more souls? Im not denying Menites in Khador. It's a terrible thing. A LN god that was impotent when his people needed him most now wants to bully and devour as many souls as he can now that he doesn't have to compete with real threats. Id say more people should have dropped Menoth as a god after the avatar supported the protectorate. This is what god has planned for you: Eternal toil and servitude, and when you need him most he will drop you like a sack of bricks only to return when you're in a better place and beat you for money again. So what Cygnar was doing was completely logical. Or heck just have a therapy session to get people to drop menoth. Hes a cruel god.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 15, 2017 18:05:06 GMT
Ok lets very things stright here. All that menoth cats about are souls. Exactly. So I would ask any menite in the setting again: How do you reconcile worshipping the God that wants your lifestyle dead, or at least doesn't care about you and only the ones that can get him more souls? Im not denying Menites in Khador. It's a terrible thing. A LN god that was impotent when his people needed him most now wants to bully and devour as many souls as he can now that he doesn't have to compete with real threats. Id say more people should have dropped Menoth as a god after the avatar supported the protectorate. This is what god has planned for you: Eternal toil and servitude, and when you need him most he will drop you like a sack of bricks only to return when you're in a better place and beat you for money again. So what Cygnar was doing was completely logical. Or heck just have a therapy session to get people to drop menoth. Hes a cruel god. I wouldn't say Menoth is evil. He doesn't hurt people out of malice, so much as carelessness. I wouldn't even try to defend him, normally. But he is the only thing standing in the way of the Wurm, and the destruction of everything. Also, the Menites don't know that their god only wants their souls. They know that he's the creator of Mankind, and he gave them civilization (fire, wall, law). So, they have fair reason to worship him.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 15, 2017 18:12:22 GMT
Just wondering, what's stopping the more educated Menites from just offing themselves as well as any other followers to feed Menoth in Urcaen? There has to be some reason for the all the toil and sacrifice if you're all just gonna end up as fuel for the fire right?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 15, 2017 18:15:28 GMT
Just wondering, what's stopping the more educated Menites from just offing themselves as well as any other followers to feed Menoth in Urcaen? There has to be some reason for the all the toil and sacrifice if you're all just gonna end up as fuel for the fire right? Simple, if all the true believers killed themselves, there would be no one to recruit new believers.
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