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Post by maximumhippo on Jun 17, 2017 7:13:26 GMT
everyone keeps bringing up the twins, and on paper they do look like they have the tools. but jvm played his twins list into banky's ghost fleet in the SOO finals and lost. and it wasn't exactly close. granted there were some dice rolls that didn't go his way, but still. i think it will be a challenge to play into no matter what tech we try to bring. It was not the best list to try and play into ghost fleet. I think the twins with some more infantry though might be a better option. JVM's list just didn't have the volume of attacks to deal with Ghost Fleet, and the wraith engine was a huge issue as well. Only 3 models in the list really had any ability to do anything with it.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 17, 2017 9:40:58 GMT
everyone keeps bringing up the twins, and on paper they do look like they have the tools. but jvm played his twins list into banky's ghost fleet in the SOO finals and lost. and it wasn't exactly close. granted there were some dice rolls that didn't go his way, but still. i think it will be a challenge to play into no matter what tech we try to bring. It was not the best list to try and play into ghost fleet. I think the twins with some more infantry though might be a better option. JVM's list just didn't have the volume of attacks to deal with Ghost Fleet, and the wraith engine was a huge issue as well. Only 3 models in the list really had any ability to do anything with it. I'm thinking whether combination of MfD and Banshees/Strider Scouts would suffice. Maybe some Deathstalkers?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 17, 2017 16:52:55 GMT
I kind of wish I had someone local that played ghost fleet. I think it'd be a great exercise.
Still, anyone able to play test wasps? Oracles Abby 2 they have a 16" charge threat mat 7 pow 10 cumulative gang 2" reach killing spree. I really think that could do tons of work. Take a bloodseer and he can cast they're animus on them instead of your caster. Abby can even sacrifice one bee to wipe upkeeps off the unit so the other 3 can go unhindered.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Jun 18, 2017 16:32:17 GMT
Currently thinking our best options are either lylyth 1 and 2 in RoW with banshees. Lyl one brings accuracy and lyl 2 brings volume of attacks with their feats. While the banshees are immune to the blast damage their Gunners are killing infantry with.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 18, 2017 16:50:45 GMT
Currently thinking our best options are either lylyth 1 and 2 in RoW with banshees. Lyl one brings accuracy and lyl 2 brings volume of attacks with their feats. While the banshees are immune to the blast damage their Gunners are killing infantry with. If Lylyth 1 is close enough to get her feat on the banshees then she's close enough to get scourged, crippling grasp, and shot to death with los ignoring guns. You need some reliable way to trigger her prowl, and I don't think ravens of war lets you bring anything to do that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 18:00:25 GMT
So I got in a game yesterday against ghost fleet in a 3 man team tourney. Dropped a Thags 1 sacral vault list. Admittedly, wasn't super teched just for ghost fleet. List was:
Thags Typhon Azrael Carnivean Naga Sacral Vault Hellmouth Forsaken Shepherd Shepherd Spell martyr
Thoughts on my own list: Sacral Vault needs at least a spawning vessel for souls, as there are no souls to gain in the matchup or from my own list outside the shepherds. Even then, I fear the pot ladies do not provide enough souls for sacral vault to really do as much as it could every turn. Outside of denny's feat turn, everything in the list is tanky enough that ghost fleet will struggle to kill everything without debuffing from denny or dark shroud from the wraith engine. Seeing as I don't have the volume of attacks to really deal with the list, my plan was to tank through a few rounds until I could find an assassination angle on denny.
How the matchup went: Scenario was extraction (2 flags, 2 objectives in diamond shape). He deployed all the pirates on one side opposite the sacral vault, and wraith engine and blackbanes opposite the hellmouth and beasts. He runs everything, I run everything away from the pirates and towards denny's side. Vault only rolls one soul. Hellmouth manages to grab the stalker and with help from carnivean spray it dies. She shifted behind the wraith engine. Denny feats, catching the heavies and sacral vault, kills the hellmouth and azrael and jams with blackbanes. Pirates were too far away to do much besides help kill azrael (he was outside arcane vortex range). I don't do much next turn because of denny feat. Manage to kill an arc node, and brick up some more. Feat azrael back. I am jammed rather far back, since I'm not used to playing tanky slow lists, killbox myself(neither I nor my opponent notice it until after the game ends). But he hasn't really killed much. His next turn he goes for scenario, killing my objective with the wraith engine, and scoring both flags with a pirate unit each. Denny is left close to my side, behind one of the flags. He scores 4. My turn I clear out all but 2 blackbanes with a fully loaded forsaken bomb. Carni charges the corporeal wraith engine and kills it. I move the naga on a hill, and nail the shadowbind on Denny. She is only camping one. I clear off the last blackbane jamming typhon with the sacral vault, move typhon up, and double boost the first spray. I roll hot, and typhon one shots denny through the one focus. Afterwards we realize I had killboxed myself, and he actually won on scenario the turn before.
Thoughts on the match up: Its a lot to face. And denny buffs out any weaknesses the list has. I think focusing on rfp and trying to kill all the pirates is folly. Killing the jacks and wraith engine take a lot of the teeth out of the list and the assassination. Arcane vortex is great. Even if the sacral vault doesn't have enough souls to completely stop the de-buffing, forcing her to burn through focus to get work done leaves her without the focus she needs against legion. She is the weak point of the list. Legion is great at assassination. My plan is to build a list that can grind long enough to kill the bigger pieces early(wraith engine, arc nodes, stalkers) and find an angle on denny and kill her. Playing out of theme again feels rough against a list that brings a significant amount of free points. While I want the sacral vault, fighting so many points down doesn't feel great. In terms of attrition it feels impossible. Would love to hear how some of the twins list suggested fair in actual gameplay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 18:04:07 GMT
@forever_Blight, although wasps threat a long way on feat turn, the ghost shot pirates shoot 14 and walk 6 every turn, so delivering them seems quite difficult considering the horrible defensive stats. But yes wasps are murder machines when they make it with abby 2.
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blight
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 9
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Post by blight on Jun 18, 2017 18:36:31 GMT
Anyone tried Twins in Ravens of War against Ghost Fleet? Perhaps something like this:
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Ravens of War
(Saeryn 2 & Rhyas 2) Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight [+24]
- Naga Nightlurker [8]
- Nephilim Protector [10]
- Seraph [14]
- Zuriel [18]
Annyssa Ryvaal [8]
Strider Deathstalker [0(4)]
Strider Deathstalker [0(4)]
Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18]
Strider Blightblades [10]
Strider Scouts [9]
- Strider Scout Officer & Musician [4]
Bunker (Objective) [0]
Only 8 free points (so Oracles might be better) but like some of the tools they can bring in Ravens (denying AD is nice in some other matchups as well). The Raptors won't get their bonus against living (as Ghost Fleet models are mostly undead) but their shots should still be useful against Ghost Fleet infantry (and are deadly poisoned shots against Denny for instance). Occultation on Raptors will protect them against shooting and magic and most of rest of the list has Stealth as well. Best case scenario is the entire list except the Twins, Seraph and Protector are stealthed models (if the Naga can get Stealth from terrain). Stealth and Banishing Ward on Zuriel should keep him pretty safe, which is nice. Would like to try them in Ravens instead of Oracles for now (although trying them out in Oracles with a Throne might be interesting as well). Alas, no possibility of testing it this summer but think some of the Cryx players here might come out to play in August (Norway meta).
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 18, 2017 20:15:24 GMT
So I got in a game yesterday against ghost fleet in a 3 man team tourney. Dropped a Thags 1 sacral vault list. Admittedly, wasn't super teched just for ghost fleet. List was: Thags Typhon Azrael Carnivean Naga Sacral Vault Hellmouth Forsaken Shepherd Shepherd Spell martyr Thoughts on my own list: Sacral Vault needs at least a spawning vessel for souls, as there are no souls to gain in the matchup or from my own list outside the shepherds. Even then, I fear the pot ladies do not provide enough souls for sacral vault to really do as much as it could every turn. Outside of denny's feat turn, everything in the list is tanky enough that ghost fleet will struggle to kill everything without debuffing from denny or dark shroud from the wraith engine. Seeing as I don't have the volume of attacks to really deal with the list, my plan was to tank through a few rounds until I could find an assassination angle on denny. Yeah you're running into the same problems with Thagrosh1 that I did. Namely you can't get enough attacks out of your list. The difference between my list and yours is that I had only one Shepherd and a Spawning Vessel instead of a Hellmouth. The anti-magic aura is great but Thagrosh1 lists are usually very slow so getting an angle on a canny Denny player is difficult especially since she can clog up lanes with infinitely recurring pirates. Got a test game in with the Twins against Ghost Fleet. We were playing SR2017 Outflank. Ended up taking a win but only because the Ghost Fleet player wasn't quite careful enough with Denny. I was really behind on attrition because the Throne ended up doing little aside from absorbing attacks since Denny's Feat rendered it incompetent for a turn. Fortunately the Throne did manage to survive attacks from two units of Pirates, a Pistol Wraith and the Cannon Crew while affected by Dark Shroud and Denny's Feat. If those attacks had gone onto Zuriel then it would have been curtains. Denny was up 4-0 on scenario and set to score 5 at the end of my turn if I didn't end the game. The Seraph Slipstreamed Rhyas to barely within charge range of Denny and used its gun to clear out a couple models in Rhyas' path. Then Rhyas cast Onslaught and the Twins charged - Rhyas at Denny who managed to survive a free strike from a Deathripper without needing to transfer and Saeryn at a model from the Blackbanes unit. Rhyas missed her initial attack but got lucky with a Flashing Blade and dealt 16 damage to Denny before she reduced it to 11 with a point of Focus. Saeryn popped Feat and swapped places with Rhyas to finish the job, boosting to hit and damage on Denny until she died. Some observations: The Throne probably won't get to do too much offensively in this match up because of Denny's Feat. It can absorb a ton of damage relative to its cost when it's protected by Banishing Ward however. I ended up using the Throne more as a barrier than anything else by wedging it between an obstruction in the middle of the table and a forest to the side which formed a wall of sorts where the Twins and Zuriel hid for a couple of turns while getting up the board. Other than that there's not a lot of hope of winning on attrition so you're playing for assassination from minute one which isn't a great place to be. List used for reference: Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Saeryn 2 & Rhyas 2) Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight [+24] - Carnivean [19] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Seraph [14] - Zuriel [18] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] The Forsaken [4] Blackfrost Shard [9] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Throne of Everblight (CID) [17] Occultation went on the Hex Hunters and Banishing Ward on the Throne.
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Post by snotling on Jun 18, 2017 20:45:58 GMT
Clearing out models in rhyas path? Free strike? No offense, but you really should re-read her card xD.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 18, 2017 21:22:12 GMT
Clearing out models in rhyas path? Free strike? No offense, but you really should re-read her card xD. Woops, forgot that Rhyas2 had Parry. For some reason I was under the impression that she lost that ability between her Prime and epic forms. Thanks for the catch. Clearing out models is still necessary since you need a landing zone to complete the charge. Regardless nothing would have changed if I'd remembered Parry since Rhyas didn't have to transfer the damage anyway.
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Post by neutralyze on Jun 18, 2017 22:44:32 GMT
everyone keeps bringing up the twins, and on paper they do look like they have the tools. but jvm played his twins list into banky's ghost fleet in the SOO finals and lost. and it wasn't exactly close. granted there were some dice rolls that didn't go his way, but still. i think it will be a challenge to play into no matter what tech we try to bring. It was not the best list to try and play into ghost fleet. I think the twins with some more infantry though might be a better option. JVM's list just didn't have the volume of attacks to deal with Ghost Fleet, and the wraith engine was a huge issue as well. Only 3 models in the list really had any ability to do anything with it. I misplayed my first turn greatly and messed up a 2nd turn action that caused a ton of issues. Knowing that, I feel the twins can still be taken to good effect against ghost fleet.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 2:58:18 GMT
thanks for your input neutralyze. any other thoughts you have or advice you have would be appreciated. the point i was trying to make was not that twins weren't viable at all (or that I was questioning or calling out a far better player than I). Initially when I saw the match up I thought you would win.
Mostly my point was that most of this thread has been theory and dojo, and I was hoping to get some actual matchup experience from people.
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Post by fdf86 on Jun 19, 2017 12:33:27 GMT
PLayed against Ghost Fleet last weekend and dropped Lylyth3. Worked really well, he stayed back really far on turn 2 but since lylyth3 threat range is immense i got to Denny anyways and killed her.
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation
(Lylyth 3) Lylyth, Reckoning of Everblight [+29] - Archangel [37] - Archangel [37] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Nephilim Protector [10] - Succubus [0(4)] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [0(1)] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)]
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 21, 2017 19:39:04 GMT
It was just brought to attention in another thread that Farrow Slaughterhousers have Take Down. This is one of the few sources of RFP that we can access. So now the question becomes what's the best way to run Slaughterhousers in Legion?
Their biggest issue appears to be their crappy defensive stats, so we need to find a way to protect them. Since most buffs in Legion are friendly faction that doesn't leave us with too many options. We could use:
Clouds (Swamp Gobbers, Belphagore, Succubus, Thagrosh's melee weapon) Anti-magic from the Sacral Vault
Are there any other ideas?
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