|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 8, 2017 2:17:10 GMT
I think a problem with this analysis that some people are trying to point out (with varying degrees of success) is that the comparison (example crusader vs mauler) is between the most popular hordes choice vs the cheapest warmachine choice of mellee heavy. Like i don't see people picking up crusaders in every list (even though some people are arguing for such tactics) so it's not the most popular choice. Like i think a more meaningful comparison would be if you compared the most popular/present non character heavy beast/jack. Like collect some data and figure out which jack/beast gets picked most often to be in a list. And then compare those. The reason for this approach is cause you're using what jack/beast the community pseudo-collectively has determined to be the best bang-to-point-cost ratio. (You could rule out ranged heavys as you see fit.)
|
|
|
Post by chillychinaman on Jun 8, 2017 2:52:55 GMT
Besides my own perception of what was each faction's "iconic" heavy, I tried to limit my choices to things in the similar weight class, excluding stuff like Legion/Circle's "light" heavies, and melee only/predominant heavies. I suppose swapping the Crusader for a Templar would be a good start for PoM, but I'm less familiar with the other factions.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Jun 8, 2017 7:42:39 GMT
I think a problem with this analysis that some people are trying to point out (with varying degrees of success) is that the comparison (example crusader vs mauler) is between the most popular hordes choice vs the cheapest warmachine choice of mellee heavy. I know this stuff takes a while to filter down so I, obviously don't blame you, but most Troll lists have moved away from the Mauler now due to fundamental issues with the way Rush and Rage work together.
There are still a few players playing 5 heavy lists with double Mauler, but it's quite telling that many Troll players have shunned the beast completely in favour of a Mountain king, who can sit back without putting your animus at risk or bombers without access to Rage.
Not sure how relevant that is to your point, but Mauler's are starting to be seen as not even good enough to break into the extremely limited Troll Beast roster, let alone being considered the most popular Hordes beast.
|
|
|
Post by pangurban on Jun 8, 2017 10:42:53 GMT
I think a problem with this analysis that some people are trying to point out (with varying degrees of success) is that the comparison (example crusader vs mauler) is between the most popular hordes choice vs the cheapest warmachine choice of mellee heavy. I know this stuff takes a while to filter down so I, obviously don't blame you, but most Troll lists have moved away from the Mauler now due to fundamental issues with the way Rush and Rage work together.
There are still a few players playing 5 heavy lists with double Mauler, but it's quite telling that many Troll players have shunned the beast completely in favour of a Mountain king, who can sit back without putting your animus at risk or bombers without access to Rage.
Not sure how relevant that is to your point, but Mauler's are starting to be seen as not even good enough to break into the extremely limited Troll Beast roster, let alone being considered the most popular Hordes beast.
Which speaks volumes about the importance of context around abilities. The Mauler is a very solid beast with an excellent animus. In vacuum it's a very compelling package, but actual practical use in the context of a game shows there are some notable downsides.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Jun 8, 2017 10:48:04 GMT
I know this stuff takes a while to filter down so I, obviously don't blame you, but most Troll lists have moved away from the Mauler now due to fundamental issues with the way Rush and Rage work together.
There are still a few players playing 5 heavy lists with double Mauler, but it's quite telling that many Troll players have shunned the beast completely in favour of a Mountain king, who can sit back without putting your animus at risk or bombers without access to Rage.
Not sure how relevant that is to your point, but Mauler's are starting to be seen as not even good enough to break into the extremely limited Troll Beast roster, let alone being considered the most popular Hordes beast.
Which speaks volumes about the importance of context around abilities. The Mauler is a very solid beast with an excellent animus. In vacuum it's a very compelling package, but actual practical use in the context of a game shows there are some notable downsides. Couldn't have said it better myself
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Jun 9, 2017 14:15:18 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really just wish they'd let Warbeasts run for free. Just to get rid of all those turn 1 headaches that low-Fury Warlocks sometimes cause.
|
|
|
Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 14:17:04 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really just wish they'd let Warbeasts run for free. Just to get rid of all those turn 1 headaches that low-Fury Warlocks sometimes cause. But would that fix the power difference? Or just be a minor buff?
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Jun 9, 2017 16:02:32 GMT
Probably not, but it'd be an important fix for lesser warbeasts.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Jun 9, 2017 17:13:40 GMT
It'd be a huge quality-of-life improvement. In fact, I don't think the power balance is that huge. It's more that beasts and jacks weirdly enough don't fill the same niches. Or so the past few months of all-Skorne-all-the-time have lead me to believe.
|
|
|
Post by chillychinaman on Jun 9, 2017 18:10:50 GMT
I think a start would be something like, "before testing for frenzy, a number of warbeasts in their warlock's control range may lose 1 Fury equal to the warlock's FURY stat. This should let beasts run unhindered as well as allow for beasts to run 1 Fury hotter.
Compared to before, the beasts do slightly more damage against ARM20
Carnievan 15 or 0.79dmg/pt Gladiator 12/0.8 Feral Warpwolf 15/0.83 Dire Troll Mauler 6/0.4
Everyone is a step stronger except for the Mauler is who really dependent on Rage to get work done.
I really think that mechanically beasts and jacks are relatively equal in terms of power/usage, however, I strongly feel that either many jacks are priced too cheaply or conversely, many beasts are too expensive. If the pendulum would swing one way or another, it'd probably help. However, this would be a pretty involved change that PP probably doesn't want to invest the effort into. As a result, I'd take my suggestion as a band-aid fix.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Jun 9, 2017 18:23:07 GMT
So that would stack with the Bronzeback leadership to strip 2 fury a turn for free?
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 9, 2017 19:25:09 GMT
So that would stack with the Bronzeback leadership to strip 2 fury a turn for free? Thus is the problem of just asking for a blanket change without thinking of every interaction. Stripping a fury only if they have to make a threshold check though might be something. For example fury 3 threshold 8. If I have to check frenzy I have to roll 5 or less. I took a risk and I pay the price. Now lets say we implement that rule and I only made a small mistake and left one on the beast - fury 1 threshold 8. I remove that 1 but I still have to make the thresholod check at 8 or less, instead of 7. Would that be a fair approach? I myself don't really like the idea but if we're looking for a "reverse" power up i think that would sort of fit. but warmachine is already complaining we have to much fury manipulation and that we run beasts hot every single turn and never face the consequences so, in most people's opinion it's just adding to the overpowered aspect of beasts vs 'jacks?
|
|
|
Post by chillychinaman on Jun 9, 2017 21:29:28 GMT
So that would stack with the Bronzeback leadership to strip 2 fury a turn for free? I mean it's not completely free, you're paying +3pts over a Gladiator, for +1STR +1MAT and the ability, which only works while you're in range of both the warlock and Bronzeback at the start of your turn. And it only affects Titans. I admit it's not a clean fix, but how many other interactions exist that can abuse this to run extra-hot, all the time?
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Jun 9, 2017 21:57:26 GMT
Soothing song is probably the big one (Madrak3, Calandra, Lylth2, Kaya1/3).
Also, bronzeback fury stripping only relies on ending activation within 7" of BB (not beginning or warlock related).
|
|
|
Post by chillychinaman on Jun 10, 2017 15:59:19 GMT
My mistake on the bronzeback, but with cmd7 you still have to at least partially commit it for attacking titans to benefit. And I don't know about the other casters, but Lylyth runs into order of activations issues when she tries to use Soothing Song.
|
|