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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 5, 2017 19:38:55 GMT
I was doing some calculations for another thread, and I decided to expand them to other factions. From my numbers I conclude that, at least in terms of raw damage per points, the warmachine heavies are twice as efficient their hordes counterparts.
For this calculation I made the following assumptions. Attacks automatically hit. Targets were ARM18/20 2d6=7, 3d6=11
I then chose the iconic heavies from the main 8 factions and ran damage calculations for each under 2 conditions. Full Focus/Fury and No added Focus/Fury(so Power-up is in). The numbers are below in the following format: (Heavy) Max Fury/Focus (ARM18 DMG) (ARM20 DMG) (ARM18 EFF) (ARM20 EFF) Min Fury/Focus (ARM18 DMG) (ARM 20 DMG) (ARM18 EFF) ARM20 EFF)
Slayer Max 26 18 2.6 1.8 Min 14 12 1.4 1.2
Ironclad Max 31 21 2.6 1.8 Min 18 11 1.5 0.9
Juggernaut Max 36 26 3 2.2 Min 21 14 1.8 1.2
Crusader Max 31 21 3.1 2.1 Min 18 11 1.8 1.1
Gladiator Max 34 23 2.3 1.5 Min 14 8 0.9 0.5
Carnivean Max 39 31 2.0 1.6 Min 17 11 0.9 0.6
Feral Warpwolf Max 41 27 2.3 1.5 Min 17 11 0.9 0.6
Dire Troll Mauler Max 40 30 2.7 Min 10 6 0.6 0.4
TL;DR Warjacks at max do 2-2.8 damage per point vs 1.5-2.3 of Warbeasts with the Crusader being most efficient and the Carnivean being the least. Warjacks are slightly stronger than warbeasts. I'm going to assume that is intentional due to the differences between Fury and Focus. It should be noted that the majority MAT of warjacks is 7 whereas for beasts its 6.
However w/o outside support, the difference shifts to almost 2:1 in favor of warjacks. with jacks sitting at 1.1-1.6 vs beasts at 0.5-0.9.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I think one Hordes needs a pseudo/reverse Power-Up. Something like a number of Fury equal to the warlock's FURY stat can be dropped from its battlegroup at the start of the control phase.
I understand I made a number of assumptions, however, I think for the most part the calculations are sound with each heavy being each faction's melee brawler heavy as opposed to utility or shooting.
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Post by gnoxic on Jun 5, 2017 19:58:54 GMT
Interesting breakdown. I think one thing about this is that "unsupported" is a much more common situation for a warjack, whereas a beast is almost always "supported" unless it's out of control area. You can force every beast you have on a power turn if you want, assume that some will die or frenzy next turn, but do a ton of work. For jacks, you can often only max out 2-3 jacks and would have to leave your caster naked to do so. I don't think I've ever charged something with a Mauler and NOT pushed it to 5 fury unless the target died already.
Good to see the numbers tho. It makes sense that jacks have a better "worst case" now due to power up.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 5, 2017 20:07:33 GMT
I'm a little bit nonplussed. You accept that there are differences between Fury and Focus that warrant a difference in expected damage per point, but you don't accept that same premisse when not factoring in "outside support". Yet you don't compare the outside support available? What's the point then? Nobody uses unsupported jacks or beasts, support is implied in the notion of battlegroups and having lists that possibly contain support models - the latter almost guaranteed in the case of most Hordes factions.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 5, 2017 20:24:26 GMT
First, there is some pretty bad math here. Assuming that you always hit and assuming that you always roll average dice, and assuming that average dice on 3d6 is 11 and not 10.5...
Second, this sort of base theorymachine analysis always leaves out other important factors. Defensive stats, speed, abilities, animi, support available to factions, etc. In the end, by only measuring one dimension, you get a totally warped view on things and draw bad conclusions.
For example, say you have a baseball player who is the best shortstop to ever have played the game, but can't hit a ball to save his life and strikes out every time he is at bat. Would you say he is a great baseball player?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 5, 2017 20:35:58 GMT
I'm not gonna take a stance here on whether beasts need buffs. But I will say that a comparison of damage is only one of several comparisons to be made, and is only the one being presented here because it is relatively the easiest to measure. From what I can tell, there are alot more moving parts inside of the Hordes/beast system than in the WarMachine/Jacks system. There's alot more interplay between lock and beasts. That is not to say that the complex system, and the flexibility that it affords, perfectly makes up for the raw damage potential per point that jacks and casters have. But the system is way more complicated than just sampling an arbitrary jack/beast from each faction and comparing average damage against some armor values. To get a real view of the situation, then many jacks and beasts would need to be compared using: -Average caster stats -Common spell/animi support in the faction (arcane shield, primal, rage, etc) -Other common support (choir, beast handlers, etc) -Fury Management (Which translates into "how often can the beast go to max fury without issues later?")
and they would need to be compared on more axes than damage potential against a single target. Other factors -Potential number of attacks -Durability (in both armor and defense, as well as all abilities contributing to survival such as steady, blade shield, etc) -Utility/support (this is the most complicated one. How does the beast/jack benefit the army as a whole when not killing things. Shield guard, animi, knockdown on a weapon, pushing and pulling stuff, etc) -Mobility (speed stat, pathfinder, out-of-activation movement, threat range, etc)
(Not trying to dogpile you, OP. I just don't care to see a flame war start over this subject again without a serious analysis taking place.)
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 5, 2017 21:29:50 GMT
I agree 100% with phoenix forger. Just comparing damage leaves a skewed representation of what the game is as it lessens a warbeasts advantage. Warjacks are damage dealers, nothing more (outside of specific utility) while warbeasts often bring animis.
Warbeast healing is awesome. It is often said around here that the stormclad isn't worth it often as it only has 8 boxes (meaning 8 damage takes out its fighting arm). Not to mention that a beasts spirit can be healed and it can be used that turn, while a damaged cortex is only useful if you have access to mechaniks as well as empowers.
Not to mention that because almost all warbeasts have more initials, damage buffs are more effective on them than they are on warjacks in general (especially because buffing as well as allocating might be a casters whole turn).
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Post by gobber on Jun 5, 2017 22:22:36 GMT
Just a random thought as to what a reverse power-up could look like: "When a beast succeeds at a threshold check, it has the option to remove one fury"
Seems to preserve/encourage the somewhat random risk management inherent in hordes. Also makes it a little bit less painful to run large numbers of beasts upfield turn one (particularly lights/lessers).
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 5, 2017 23:55:48 GMT
Thanks for the responses.
I completely agree that this is a very crude analysis of just one aspect of the game. My calculations show that the Crusader is probably the best jack in the game, however realistically, I'm aware that it's slow and thus will eat the alpha, while something like a Warpwolf's DEF14 means it'll dodge many attacks, or at the least reduce the total damage it takes by forcing boosts to hit.
Can it be agreed that of the heavies I listed, their primary purpose is to fight in melee? I tried to make sure I didn't include shooters like a Ravagore or shield guards like Templars.
And yes healing warbeasts is a massive game changer for the longevity of beasts. However, so is the ability to load up a jack and send it out of your caster's control range. Then there's also factoring the current meta's tendency to kill targets dead in melee rendering healing, on both sides, pointless.
As to problems with the calculations themselves, I concede that they are very rudimentary and make many assumptions. I recognize that I didn't include faction iconic buffs like Choir or Primal.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jun 6, 2017 0:33:23 GMT
Please let me know when the Juggernaut gets the animus "Rage" added to its rules.
Then we'll talk.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 6, 2017 0:35:55 GMT
Please let me know when the Juggernaut gets the animus "Rage" added to its rules. Then we'll talk. Will do, just as soon as the Juggy loses some armor and boxes. Back to OP. The function of a Mauler is a bit deeper than "generic beatstick". It provides a damage buff that the rest of faction relies on. The carnivean has several abilities tacked on that make it more than a "generic beatstick". It has pathfinder and eyeless sight. It has 3 initials, and a spray 10 assault. The gladiator has rush, which helps out all of the other beasts, and has access to a good amount of support. And the feral warpwolf has primal, and warping. Primal is yet another faction support buff, and coupled with Warp Strength it does some work. So 3 of those 4 beasts have additional utility built into them to help other beasts. Again, I am not proposing that everything is perfectly balanced. But these are flawed analyses. The jacks here are very straight forward beatsticks, and the beasts are beatsticks+. It is really much more complicated than simple damage per points. Now, I may or may not agree that some hordes could use some buffs. But it is part of Hordes' design that the beasts are more complex and fancy than their warjack cousins, and they cost more because of that. Maybe they are overcosted still, but if you want heavies that just do damage and little more, I suggest Warmachine. If you want heavies that can wreck face, and also do other stuff, then Hordes is preferable.
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Post by claptrap on Jun 6, 2017 0:59:02 GMT
Just nitpicking here but...
I play POM and Circle, and I'm not sure how you determined 'iconic' but neither the Crusader or the Feral see a lot of play these days (the Crusader didn't see a lot of play in MK II, either).
I think the better choice for Circle would be the Stalker (or assume that the Feral has Primal). I assume you calculated in the Feral's three attacks, though.
Harder to pick for POM. Out of the heavies with 2 melee attacks, I'd probably go with the Templar. I could see a case for Sanctifier or Guardian, but then you have other issues. The Sanctifier rarely runs without focus of any kind (because of the souls) and the Guardian pays a bit of an arc node tax. Honestly, the most iconic is probably the Reckoner, but that only has a single melee attack. I also assume that you didn't add the choir damage buff for the Crusader (which would be misleading since that buff is up most of the time).
The trouble finding the 'iconic' POM jack highlights the issues of taking damage output alone as a metric.
1) Support make a big difference. 2) Jacks and beasts are not generally chosen based on damage output alone. Some have DEF buffs, some have ARM buffs, some have other abilities that aren't represented by damage output. And, of course, beast animi can not only be cast by the beast, but the warlock gets an extra spell out of the deal.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 6, 2017 2:29:56 GMT
Please let me know when the Juggernaut gets the animus "Rage" added to its rules. Then we'll talk. Mauler with Rage: PS 19 Juggernaut: PS 19 It already has Rage, just built into its base statline and requiring no focus expenditure. Much like how Ol' Rowdy has Ornery and Still as Death built in for no focus cost, Fireflies have built in Sky Fire, Kodiaks have sort of Despoiler as an any time ability, Eye of Truth has super Wraithbane as a passive area effect.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 6, 2017 2:41:51 GMT
Eye of truth is also 20 points. A naga is nowhere near that expensive. ..... i hope
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 6, 2017 3:24:09 GMT
Please let me know when the Juggernaut gets the animus "Rage" added to its rules. Then we'll talk. Mauler with Rage: PS 19 Juggernaut: PS 19 It already has Rage, just built into its base statline and requiring no focus expenditure. Much like how Ol' Rowdy has Ornery and Still as Death built in for no focus cost, Fireflies have built in Sky Fire, Kodiaks have sort of Despoiler as an any time ability, Eye of Truth has super Wraithbane as a passive area effect. Imo there is a great disparity between beasts who need their own animus to function and those who can benefit others. Like rage works on the mauler and also in 6", so comparing the mauler to the juggernaut has the mauler *slightly * edging out the juggernauts in damage if it rages itself and then massively doing so if it is cast by the caster (or another mauler) onto the mauler. I believe that beasts with animism that are self should have mechanisms to cast it for free, like the Pyre Troll and the carnivean (or cheaper). Seems silly to have so much of a models resources constrained in a "must use". But ranged animus are different, imo. They have their own vectors of being cast. If it weren't for some animi such as slipstream (and maybe even so) I would say that warlocks should always have access to a beasts animi even if it dies. Then you can be less precious with them.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 6, 2017 4:58:43 GMT
A variable Animus cost for SELF and RNG is a great idea, octaviusmaximus. Animi certainly look now like a bolted on rule in majority of cass IMO.
As for the basic premise, the comparison is ok, we can see who fares how well. The conclusions about "power level" are impossible to draw from this, unfortunately, because of oh-so-many other factors.
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