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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 7, 2017 14:43:56 GMT
As with beasts, depends on the imprint. You have to factor in high fury and high initials compared to a hard cap of 3 focus, with usually 6 or 7 to split between all of the jacks and caster. And yet all of the Warmachine factions have access to Empower. The Jacks have less attacks, but they also hit harder, are cheaper and have more boxes. Also, I will reiterate, power up. Taking more jacks gives you an increase in available focus, taking more beasts does not increase your fury capacities. Really getting sick of people looking back at Mk2 for comparison between jacks and beasts, and claiming that because jacks weren't good then, jacks and beasts must be on equal footing now. In the switch to Mk3, Jacks: - got cheaper on average - in many cases got stat boosts - got power up While Beasts: - did NOT decrease in points, in most cases - had their animi nerfed/reduced in utility - had their fury support reduced in effectiveness The pendulum swung waaaaay too far, and the reason you're still seeing beasts at tournaments is because a) many hordes factions have no other way of cracking armor, and b) if everything is overcosted, you still have to take SOMETHING to compete with.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 15:04:38 GMT
And I dislike how people view powerup. Every Jack isn't +1 Focus into a bucket that they can spread around, ensuring that the Juggernaught can always have 4 focus to attack.
It's just 1 focus. Usually only enough for a free charge. Empower is also +1 Focus, and sans retribution, every +1 focus costs about 4 Points.
A Juggernaught with 3 Focus, requires either 8 Points, or 1/3 of the focus from a Caster. And if there are no mechanics in place (+4 Points), or they just aren't within 5 inches if its arm gets knocked off you mainly burned points.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 15:18:23 GMT
OK. a warlock rages a mauler, charges, makes 6 attacks crippling one warjack and killing another (I've seen this actually happen). It's consumed 2 fury and generated 5, and has about a 60% survival chance now. Those 5 fury will be re-absorbed for further use in a symbiotic pattern of efficiency. the warlock still has fury it could have done other stuff with for the rest of the field: maybe it's calandra and she put up star crossed or something. she can also force her bomber to do some cool stuff, in total having spent 5 or 6 fury and generating 7, a total of 12 or 13 fury points used while "running cool".
Meanwhile, a Castigator recieves 2 focus, powers one up, gets battled, gets ignite, gets an out of activation move, walks, and still only gets one full kill plus one punch that cripples nothing with 5 attacks total. the second Warjack will still kill it, or at least cripple it beyond retaliation. This is possible under reznik 1. He has used his whole stack, pulling one from a wrack just to camp something, and the entire rest of his (probably sizeable) battlegroup gets one focus apiece, not enough to significantly damage much of anything else(don't assume reckoners because then the cost is even, not in my favor). we have spent 8 focus, just straight up spent it, plus however many powerups are around.
Hordes uses more fury with the animi, but they simply have more to use for a similar or number of pieces.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 7, 2017 15:22:22 GMT
And I dislike how people view powerup. Every Jack isn't +1 Focus into a bucket that they can spread around, ensuring that the Juggernaught can always have 4 focus to attack. It's just 1 focus. Usually only enough for a free charge. Empower is also +1 Focus, and sans retribution, every +1 focus costs about 4 Points. A Juggernaught with 3 Focus, requires either 8 Points, or 1/3 of the focus from a Caster. And if there are no mechanics in place (+4 Points), or they just aren't within 5 inches if its arm gets knocked off you mainly burned points. And I have to spend a 3rd of my Warcaster's fury to get the strength on my beast up to the same level as your jack started at. You spend 2 focus for the jack to get attacks, I spend 2 fury so my beast isn't hitting at pow 15. It's the same cost. On top of this I have to find somewhere for the fury to go or I risk losing the beast next turn and even if it passes the frenzy it's way less efficient.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 7, 2017 15:24:36 GMT
OK. a warlock rages a mauler, charges, makes 6 attacks crippling one warjack and killing another (I've seen this actually happen). It's consumed 2 fury and generated 5, and has about a 60% survival chance now. Those 5 fury will be re-absorbed for further use in a symbiotic pattern of efficiency. the warlock still has fury it could have done other stuff with for the rest of the field: maybe it's calandra and she put up star crossed or something. she can also force her bomber to do some cool stuff, in total having spent 5 or 6 fury and generating 7, a total of 12 or 13 fury points used while "running cool". Meanwhile, a Castigator recieves 2 focus, powers one up, gets battled, gets ignite, gets an out of activation move, walks, and still only gets one full kill plus one punch that cripples nothing with 5 attacks total. the second Warjack will still kill it, or at least cripple it beyond retaliation. This is possible under reznik 1. He has used his whole stack, pulling one from a wrack just to camp something, and the entire rest of his (probably sizeable) battlegroup gets one focus apiece, not enough to significantly damage much of anything else(don't assume reckoners because then the cost is even, not in my favor). we have spent 8 focus, just straight up spent it, plus however many powerups are around. Hordes uses more fury with the animi, but they simply have more to use for a similar or number of pieces. The comparison works as long as you're comparing a small number of beasts and warjack. It falls apart once you start accounting for scale.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 7, 2017 16:51:08 GMT
One of the factors that the discussion is missing so far is theme forces and their interaction with battle groups. Warmachine factions have the luxury of minimizing their battle groups to just the warjack pts of the caster to maximize the free points from infantry centric theme forces. Hordes players, usually, must optimize their battle group first ensuring that their caster is fueled and the sunk points can actually operate well, which tends to eat 15 to 20 pts into their 75pt allotment for the list. Thus when trying to maximize the amount of free models taken when you require infantry in 20 pt chunks you can only get 2 most of the time.
This is borne out by looking at which theme forces are popular on the hordes side and behold its Power of Duhnia and Oracles which reward the player for maximizing pts in beasts and not infantry. You'd probably see more Bones of Orboros as well if wolds were actually worth it. Most hordes infantry being crap is another factor here. This theme force disparity serves to act as another tax on "required animi" in these kind of infantry centric theme forces that warmachine just doesn't have to worry about.
One fix here is to ensure that the free solos that the Hordes players can take are actually the more expensive solos. For example in the tharn theme you can't take the wolfrider (8pts but lets face it she's only worth 6) or the lord of the feast. In the wolfsworn theme Morraig is not allowed to be free (but for some reason Skeryth is in Ret). In both of these themes the gallows groves are available as single instance free models at 2pts ... what a joke. PP should be looking for the opportunity to up these free points for under performing infantry builds while allowing the larger solos for free and bundling the cheaper ones as multi options like the wracks in The Creator's Might. the other option would be lowering the point threshold required to obtain the free pts to something like 15 in hordes (infantry centric lists only the beast ones should stay at 25 without question).
Some examples: - 3xWar Wolves in the Wild Hunt - 2 or 3x Gallows groves - 3x Shepherds in Ravens - 4x spell martyrs in Ravens - Anyssa in Ravens - Allow Horthol to be free in Heroes and make ALL infantry count towards the total instead of just champs and warders.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 7, 2017 18:30:04 GMT
Provengreil A few things I want to note. I completely agree that one of the greatest strengths of Fury is the ability to overtax yourself one turn, regardless of the consequences afterward. However, with the current climate of lower stats and generally being more expensive, I think it's fair to say that Hordes also start at least a step or two behind Warmachine, even if they are allowed to tactically skip ahead.
Secondly, why is the 12/18 Troll so much more survivable than the 10(12)/19 Jack? If it's because of Starcrossed, I think you're cherry picking an optimal situation.
Finally, why is Reznik casting Perdition? it's not that great of a spell for its cost. Wouldn't it be better to fuel another jack to full?
Think of it this way: With the trolls you have a pair of Maulers and a generic 6 Fury warlock. 4 Focus get spent on Rage and I figure 1 for an upkeep, camping 1. The pair can probably take out 2 bunched up jacks,(how often does this happen?) or the situation you described above happens with one while the other scratches the paint or, with some luck, takes out a system on another.
Meanwhile on the Menite side, a 6 Focus caster with 2 Castigators cycles Ignite, fuels one to full and the other to 2/3. The jacks are also likely to kill two bunched up heavies, or one can kill one, and nearly kill a different one, potentially out of control range of the caster. Granted the surviving heavy could be healed/repaired up, especially if it was a beast.
The real kicker is that the Troll player has the option to over force, potentially securing 2-4kills at the expense of the next turn. Let's be realistic, at least one of the Maulers will probably take 2 turns of counterattacks without significant reprisal due to committing to the frontline followed by a turn of frenzy. I'm probably biased as a mostly Hordes player, though I do have Protectorate on the side, but I personally feel that the benefits of Fury are mostly a wash after taking into account the generally higher consistency that Warmachine gets with slightly higher point efficiency and steady flow of focus.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 18:50:00 GMT
And I have to spend a 3rd of my Warcaster's fury to get the strength on my beast up to the same level as your jack started at 1 Jack. The Juggernaught. If I have any most other Jack except the outright beat stick ones, they won't be higher than POW 17. And even if I upkeep fury on them or something, thats 1/2 of the focus to both power em up and fuel em. Not every Jack is the Behemoth, who is also a Stormclad, who is also a jack that costs 12 points.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 7, 2017 19:25:10 GMT
A Juggernaught with 3 Focus, requires either 8 Points, So a Juggernaut would now be appropriately priced for being able to one-round nearly any other heavy in the game. Shall I bring up the Carnivean oddsmachine %?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 19:29:23 GMT
So a Juggernaut would now be appropriately priced for being able to one-round nearly any other heavy in the game. Shall I bring up the Carnivean oddsmachine %? I'd rival the Carnivean with a Grolar. And Id say the Carnivean mostly wins that battle. Its almost like comparing beasts and jacks not only in a vacuum, but stripped of everything but killing potential really skews results. The Juggernaught is VITAL to Khador. Strip it away and the only real jack Based armor cracking options left remain firmly at 18-19 points and aren't really good outside of a few casters (Maybe). Casters like the Old Witch really depend on a no thrills option like a Jugger.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 7, 2017 19:46:54 GMT
So a Juggernaut would now be appropriately priced for being able to one-round nearly any other heavy in the game. Shall I bring up the Carnivean oddsmachine %? I'd rival the Carnivean with a Grolar. And Id say the Carnivean mostly wins that battle. Its almost like comparing beasts and jacks not only in a vacuum, but stripped of everything but killing potential really skews results. The Juggernaught is VITAL to Khador. Strip it away and the only real jack Based armor cracking options left remain firmly at 18-19 points and aren't really good outside of a few casters (Maybe). Casters like the Old Witch really depend on a no thrills option like a Jugger. To which I would say welcome to what everybody else has.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 7, 2017 19:48:02 GMT
So a Juggernaut would now be appropriately priced for being able to one-round nearly any other heavy in the game. Shall I bring up the Carnivean oddsmachine %? I'd rival the Carnivean with a Grolar. And Id say the Carnivean mostly wins that battle. Its almost like comparing beasts and jacks not only in a vacuum, but stripped of everything but killing potential really skews results. The Juggernaught is VITAL to Khador. Strip it away and the only real jack Based armor cracking options left remain firmly at 18-19 points and aren't really good outside of a few casters (Maybe). Casters like the Old Witch really depend on a no thrills option like a Jugger. Y'know who would ALSO like a no frills armor cracking option? Virtually every Hordes faction. The only reason such an option is not 'vital' is because by and large, it does not exist. Incidentally, I'm always suspicious of players who claim something is 'vital' to their faction. Cygnar players, for instance, say the same about Haley2 and Storm Lances.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 19:55:40 GMT
Y'know who would ALSO like a no frills armor cracking option? Virtually every Hordes faction. The only reason such an option is not 'vital' is because by and large, it does not exist. Then ask for ask Armor Cracking Option. I'm all for the Pyre Trolls Animus to be expanded to any troll, Im all for buffing underperforming Legion Beasts. Circle has access to Primal at a lower cost point (Though it has plenty of things that could be buffed). Don't demand a nerf an option without any thought put into it because your bitter.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 7, 2017 20:01:38 GMT
So a Juggernaut would now be appropriately priced for being able to one-round nearly any other heavy in the game. Shall I bring up the Carnivean oddsmachine %? I'd rival the Carnivean with a Grolar. And Id say the Carnivean mostly wins that battle. Its almost like comparing beasts and jacks not only in a vacuum, but stripped of everything but killing potential really skews results. The Juggernaught is VITAL to Khador. And the Grolar is anything but. Nobody would miss it if it got scrapped, in a competitive sense. The Carnivean on the other hand is a staple warbeast in Legion. Bit of a pointless rivaling, no offense.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 7, 2017 20:06:00 GMT
Y'know who would ALSO like a no frills armor cracking option? Virtually every Hordes faction. The only reason such an option is not 'vital' is because by and large, it does not exist. Then ask for ask Armor Cracking Option. I'm all for the Pyre Trolls Animus to be expanded to any troll, Im all for buffing underperforming Legion Beasts. Circle has access to Primal at a lower cost point (Though it has plenty of things that could be buffed). Don't demand a nerf an option without any thought put into it because your bitter. Barely anybody is asking to nerf Warmachine, and those who are are only targeting very few, very specific models. Most everybody else is doing what you say they should, which is asking for better stuff in areas they're lacking that they feel they can't otherwise make up for.
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