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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 7, 2017 20:29:25 GMT
Y'know who would ALSO like a no frills armor cracking option? Virtually every Hordes faction. The only reason such an option is not 'vital' is because by and large, it does not exist. Then ask for ask Armor Cracking Option. I'm all for the Pyre Trolls Animus to be expanded to any troll, Im all for buffing underperforming Legion Beasts. Circle has access to Primal at a lower cost point (Though it has plenty of things that could be buffed). Don't demand a nerf an option without any thought put into it because your bitter. Is it easier to balance a single model in a single faction or dozen of beasts, casters, and animi? We target the minuscule number of outliers because the fix is more reasonable and would be a quick and relevant turn around. PP has said time and again they don't want to overhaul factions like they did Skorne. So by that logic revisiting every beast in hordes is far less likely than addressing a single jack or maybe two.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 20:43:06 GMT
And the Grolar is anything but. Nobody would miss it if it got scrapped, in a competitive sense. The Carnivean on the other hand is a staple warbeast in Legion. Bit of a pointless rivaling, no offense. My point was you compare a Beast of appropriate cost to a Jack of the same. Not every Jack in Khador has POW 19 Weapons. Precisely 2 do, and ones a character jack.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 20:44:19 GMT
We target the minuscule number of outliers because the fix is more reasonable and would be a quick and relevant turn around. So what do you propose? That any jack with Power over 17 be at least cost 13 or 14 because "My faction doesn't have it!"
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 20:50:58 GMT
chill, guys, don't get this thread locked.
The issue is that PP have left us no vectors to directly ask for anything. bringing it up in CID or the main forums gets either a warning or a ban, and they only lurk in other places, rarely posting and never answering mechanical questions.
I'd love to see the castigator get something special. I'd love for the trolls have more reasons to play the elemental lights. I want Khador's Demo corps to exist.
What I don't want is everything buffed to the highest standard. Buff all no nerf is an arms race that nobody really wins, because as abilities become powerful enough they become hard counters to something else, and then it's just list chicken a lot. For instance, from the above, if the pyre troll's animus becomes 6 inch, then for 9 points and a few fury here and there, they (mostly) replace rage and completely hard counter legion shooting, menoth shooting, half of menoth's available defense buffs, and like 7 warcasters. SO it's probably not a good idea to simply buff it that way.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 20:54:54 GMT
Alright, but for most of MKII, I wanted the Juggernaught to exist (And the Demo Core to exist as well). But I feel like its being treated unfairly and given unfair comparisons.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 7, 2017 21:23:01 GMT
And the Grolar is anything but. Nobody would miss it if it got scrapped, in a competitive sense. The Carnivean on the other hand is a staple warbeast in Legion. Bit of a pointless rivaling, no offense. My point was you compare a Beast of appropriate cost to a Jack of the same. Not every Jack in Khador has POW 19 Weapons. Precisely 2 do, and ones a character jack. My point is you shouldn't be surprised if in this comparison the jack nobody takes loses out to the beast everybody takes. There are reasons the Grolar isn't liked and the Carnivean is (and frankly, damage potential isn't even foremost among them). I get that you're happy with the Juggernaut in Khador. That's fine. I think it's a valuable jack in Khador's stable without being overpowered. I see no reason at all to change it. But if we want to compare it to its counterpart in Legion, the simple truth of the matter is that it doesn't have one. Legion doesn't have a no-frills heavy beater, or even anything close to it. That's why you get the Carnivean comparison: in terms of overal damage output and resilience it's the closest equivalent to the Juggernaut. It has other qualities besides those (being a beast rather than a jack being one of those) so it costs more, but it's still the most reasonable comparison to make - as long as we acknowledge the other stuff is there and factors into the cost. That extra cost has consequences for the faction though. Even if the no-frills beater in one faction is perfectly balanced, the fact that another faction doesn't have a comparable option of its own is a disadvantage, and I don't see Legion having any real options to even this out. That doesn't mean Legion's crap either, just that in this particular instance - getting big damage from a somewhat survivable platform that can be affected by battlegroup effects, on a limited budget - they don't have a seat at the table.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 21:42:05 GMT
I get that you're happy with the Juggernaut in Khador. That's fine. I think it's a valuable jack in Khador's stable without being overpowered. I see no reason at all to change it. But if we want to compare it to its counterpart in Legion, the simple truth of the matter is that it doesn't have one. So because there isn't a Counterpart, you compare it to a thing...that isn't its counterpart. But you can't compare the counterpart to khadors counterpart...Because its less popular.
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Post by dazzla on Jun 7, 2017 22:22:13 GMT
My point was you compare a Beast of appropriate cost to a Jack of the same. Not every Jack in Khador has POW 19 Weapons. Precisely 2 do, and ones a character jack. My point is you shouldn't be surprised if in this comparison the jack nobody takes loses out to the beast everybody takes. There are reasons the Grolar isn't liked and the Carnivean is (and frankly, damage potential isn't even foremost among them). I get that you're happy with the Juggernaut in Khador. That's fine. I think it's a valuable jack in Khador's stable without being overpowered. I see no reason at all to change it. But if we want to compare it to its counterpart in Legion, the simple truth of the matter is that it doesn't have one. Legion doesn't have a no-frills heavy beater, or even anything close to it. That's why you get the Carnivean comparison: in terms of overal damage output and resilience it's the closest equivalent to the Juggernaut. It has other qualities besides those (being a beast rather than a jack being one of those) so it costs more, but it's still the most reasonable comparison to make - as long as we acknowledge the other stuff is there and factors into the cost. That extra cost has consequences for the faction though. Even if the no-frills beater in one faction is perfectly balanced, the fact that another faction doesn't have a comparable option of its own is a disadvantage, and I don't see Legion having any real options to even this out. That doesn't mean Legion's crap either, just that in this particular instance - getting big damage from a somewhat survivable platform that can be affected by battlegroup effects, on a limited budget - they don't have a seat at the table. I think the fact that Legion does not have a no-frills heavy beater is the result of a deliberate design decision by PP to have different factions each with different advantages and disadvantages. Just as Menoth is at a disadvantage because it does not have any heavies with flight, or faster than Speed 5 or eyeless sight. If Menoth had access to heavies with those capabilities it would allow for a very different playstyle, and the addressing of Menoth's limitations would be a big power boost for the faction which would probably require a rebalancing of other models. Similarly, giving Legion access to 'Menoth-style' beasts to address Legion's disadvantages would also have implications for the way Legion played. I hope that PP keeps the factions different and distinct. If they address one factions disadvantage it alters the character of the faction.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 7, 2017 23:18:38 GMT
So what do you propose? That any jack with Power over 17 be at least cost 13 or 14 because "My faction doesn't have it!" You're jumping to unreasonable conclusions and making up things i've never once said. I'd appreciate you stop, I'm not going to ask again. We're asking for a fair and unbiased analysis. Not change. Not Nerfs. Just looking at data as it exists. though it seems bias can't be shaken. It seems that things can not be take at base values. That we cannot acknowledge support and willingly set it aside. So in truth no matter how many times the conversation comes up it will never really be discussed civilly.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 8, 2017 0:18:11 GMT
I get that you're happy with the Juggernaut in Khador. That's fine. I think it's a valuable jack in Khador's stable without being overpowered. I see no reason at all to change it. But if we want to compare it to its counterpart in Legion, the simple truth of the matter is that it doesn't have one. So because there isn't a Counterpart, you compare it to a thing...that isn't its counterpart. But you can't compare the counterpart to khadors counterpart...Because its less popular. You can compare the Carnivean to the Grolar. We did. What I'm saying is that it isn't a very meaningful comparison. The Grolar is arguably underpowered, or it'd get taken more, and it's already cheaper than the Carnivean. If the Grolar turned out to still be better or even just equal, that'd say volumes about the Carnivean and Legion in general. We also can compare the Juggernaut to the Carnivean even if they aren't really counterparts, since we're focusing on specific aspects of these warnouns where they are at least moderately similar in function. We just need to be aware of the limitations of the comparison.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 8, 2017 0:23:52 GMT
So because there isn't a Counterpart, you compare it to a thing...that isn't its counterpart. But you can't compare the counterpart to khadors counterpart...Because its less popular. You can compare the Carnivean to the Grolar. We did. What I'm saying is that it isn't a very meaningful comparison. The Grolar is arguably underpowered, or it'd get taken more, and it's already cheaper than the Carnivean. If the Grolar turned out to still be better or even just equal, that'd say volumes about the Carnivean and Legion in general. We also can compare the Juggernaut to the Carnivean even if they aren't really counterparts, since we're focusing on specific aspects of these warnouns where they are at least moderately similar in function. We just need to be aware of the limitations of the comparison. The Grolar isn't taken much because it would look more in place in Cryx or Retribution then Khador - it's a tricky jack, which Khador doesn't support well.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 8, 2017 0:27:18 GMT
You can compare the Carnivean to the Grolar. We did. What I'm saying is that it isn't a very meaningful comparison. The Grolar is arguably underpowered, or it'd get taken more, and it's already cheaper than the Carnivean. If the Grolar turned out to still be better or even just equal, that'd say volumes about the Carnivean and Legion in general. We also can compare the Juggernaut to the Carnivean even if they aren't really counterparts, since we're focusing on specific aspects of these warnouns where they are at least moderately similar in function. We just need to be aware of the limitations of the comparison. The Grolar isn't taken much because it would look more in place in Cryx or Retribution then Khador - it's a tricky jack, which Khador doesn't support well. Which is a nice way of saying it's underpowered, even if only because it's in Khador. Quite a few other jacks that don't see play now would get a really loving home in other factions as well.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 8, 2017 0:55:00 GMT
The Grolar isn't taken much because it would look more in place in Cryx or Retribution then Khador - it's a tricky jack, which Khador doesn't support well. Which is a nice way of saying it's underpowered, even if only because it's in Khador. Quite a few other jacks that don't see play now would get a really loving home in other factions as well. So is a Reaper now underpowered because it's in a faction without Snipe? Are Aradii useless because they're slow? It is a tool. You take it when you need it. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 8, 2017 1:26:21 GMT
Which is a nice way of saying it's underpowered, even if only because it's in Khador. Quite a few other jacks that don't see play now would get a really loving home in other factions as well. So is a Reaper now underpowered because it's in a faction without Snipe? Are Aradii useless because they're slow? It is a tool. You take it when you need it. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't. Some tools are apparently rarely needed, if ever. We can't draw conclusions from that?
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 8, 2017 1:52:21 GMT
So is a Reaper now underpowered because it's in a faction without Snipe? Are Aradii useless because they're slow? It is a tool. You take it when you need it. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't. Some tools are apparently rarely needed, if ever. We can't draw conclusions from that? Again, this pops up, it depends on your meta. If you deal with the uber-jack spam in my area, then yeah, having something that forces them to spend focus and therefore be less effective is pretty damn good.
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