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Post by pangurban on Jun 7, 2017 8:12:04 GMT
The perspective of Warmachine players everywhere. How about if all of your jacks went up 2 points, but gained a randomly determined imprint, ranging from potentially useful to utterly useless? Would you still be so enthusiastic about it then? I think you underestimate how powerful having those abilities on a stick are. I imagine it's a little like having access to Battle on a stick. Or Arcane Shield on a stick. Or Concentrated Power on a stick. Except those are on models that are cheap and/or can be kept safe relatively easily. I get it. Strong abilities on a stick are awesome, often faction-defining. The kind of stick makes a big difference though.
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Post by kineath on Jun 7, 2017 9:49:21 GMT
I think you underestimate how powerful having those abilities on a stick are. I imagine it's a little like having access to Battle on a stick. Or Arcane Shield on a stick. Or Concentrated Power on a stick. Except those are on models that are cheap and/or can be kept safe relatively easily. I get it. Strong abilities on a stick are awesome, often faction-defining. The kind of stick makes a big difference though. Quote for thruth.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 7, 2017 9:52:29 GMT
I imagine it's a little like having access to Battle on a stick. Or Arcane Shield on a stick. Or Concentrated Power on a stick. Except those are on models that are cheap and/or can be kept safe relatively easily. I get it. Strong abilities on a stick are awesome, often faction-defining. The kind of stick makes a big difference though. Quote for thruth. A great example is Skorne vs Trolls. Skorne have beast handlers that can enrage their beasts, where as Trolls get there damage buff through the Mauler's animus.
It means that Troll lists end up with less interesting beast packages and have a constant issue with defending the beast with the Animus as we lose so much hitting power when it dies. There is also the issue that you can't have a beast with Rage and Rush so difficult terrain becomes more of an issue. Skorne on the other hand can enrage and rush a beast so it's less of a factor.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 7, 2017 10:07:26 GMT
I think you underestimate how powerful having those abilities on a stick are. I imagine it's a little like having access to Battle on a stick. Or Arcane Shield on a stick. Or Concentrated Power on a stick. Except those are on models that are cheap and/or can be kept safe relatively easily. I get it. Strong abilities on a stick are awesome, often faction-defining. The kind of stick makes a big difference though. Sometimes I wish the junior could up and punch things like a Heavy, sometimes I don't. I just don't think it's always a clear cut "x is better than y"
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Post by pangurban on Jun 7, 2017 10:20:47 GMT
I imagine it's a little like having access to Battle on a stick. Or Arcane Shield on a stick. Or Concentrated Power on a stick. Except those are on models that are cheap and/or can be kept safe relatively easily. I get it. Strong abilities on a stick are awesome, often faction-defining. The kind of stick makes a big difference though. Sometimes I wish the junior could up and punch things like a Heavy, sometimes I don't. I just don't think it's always a clear cut "x is better than y" If junior was priced like a heavy, I'm sure he could. Without dragging this into a full-blown Fury vs Focus argument again, I think it's safe to say that it's quite a bit easier for most Warmachine factions to want a strong support ability on a jack-shaped stick than for most Hordes factions. Warmachine factions already have a lot more (and more affordable) non-warnoun support sticks on average, they have much more access to cheap, cost-effective jacks on average and they can choose to go battlegroup light more easily: all ways to make having that awesome ability on a jack a lot more affordable and convenient than on a beast. And while I'm sure it's something we can argue back and forth about, I do feel a larger percentage of jacks are competitive than beasts with crappy animi being the major contributing factor in that. I'm entirely ok with the notion of playing good models and not playing bad ones, but that doesn't mean it's not ok to want more good ones than bad ones or to consider what might make a model bad rather than good - particularly if it appears to be a recurring issue rather than a one-off goof-up.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 7, 2017 10:23:41 GMT
Warmachine factions already have a lot more (and more affordable) non-warnoun support sticks on average, they have much more access to cheap, cost-effective jacks on average and they can choose to go battlegroup light more easily You're kinda fusing all the factions together and creating THE ULTIMATE FACTION. Cygnar gets complaints for having too much support stuff in the form of Junior, or its jacks being too triksy and supportive Menoth gets complaints for its easy support access Khador gets complaints for its jacks being too good Cryx...Uh...Aperantly nobody liked Cryx jacks.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 10:55:09 GMT
I'm not sure why khador jack's are MAT7. That seemed unneeded, and some are a point or two too cheap, but not by much imo. Why not? Their Ranged attacks are inaccurate and weak. Getting them up to a decent speed requires spending focus (If your caster even has a battlegroup speeding up spell). Whilst the Juggernaught is awesome its pretty much the only real beatstick in the Khadoran stable at the less then elite price point. For that I say, at least let Khador have Mat 7. We don't hit as hard as Menoth, we don't have as much doodads as Cygnar, were not as expertly designed as COC, cheap as mercs or fast as Cryx. So let Khador be reliable. I know I'm late to this comment, but.... THIS. Juggys are fantastic, but the only other jack rivaling them in speed and power and cheapness in the crusader, which has the choir delivery system. Of all comparisons to Khador, the base MAT of our base jacks bothers me the least.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 7, 2017 10:55:15 GMT
You're kinda fusing all the factions together and creating THE ULTIMATE FACTION. Cygnar gets complaints for having too much support stuff in the form of Junior, or its jacks being too triksy and supportive Menoth gets complaints for its easy support access Khador gets complaints for its jacks being too good Cryx...Uh...Aperantly nobody liked Cryx jacks. I don't think I am. Khador's not the only Warmachine faction with effective cheap jacks (even though the others arguably have more reasons not to capitalize on theirs as much because they have other strengths to lean on), and strong support solos or small units show up in multiples across most Warmachine factions too. Heck, even Cryx has stuff like Dark Shroud on non-jack models and whatnot. And they'd love a jack with a good enough support quality to make it worth fielding, since they'd love any new jacks actually worth fielding. Keep in mind I'm not complaining about the Warmachine factions having it too good. I think that by and large they are where they should be. I do think it's a little disingenuous to say Warmachine factions would love heavies with strong, potentially faction-defining support abilities and Hordes factions should be happy with having that in a number of instances without acknowledging how the differences between the two types of factions make that a lot more palatable for the former.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 7, 2017 11:59:43 GMT
I think there's a context that Horde people miss when they talk about power up. It was introduced because otherwise all jacks were useless hunks of metal that required a babysitting Focus dispenser to do literally anything except move at slow pace. Did you forget all mk2 Warmachine lists being 1 obligatory jack + infantry out the wazoo? If beasts were just as bad we wouldn't see all-beast lists winning tournaments now. Given that only beast lists win I'd say Hordes infantry perfomance is what should need a big rehash, not beasts.
Beasts don't have the problem of being useless, they don't need power up. What they have is point inefficiencies due to support bloat which also plagues Menoth for example. That's why I asked about support costs earlier. Something like Crusader may look undercosted against Mauler, but it's still overcosted against Juggernaut/Ironclad when you figure in the choir. It's easy to see, all the top performing factions aren't support dependent. Case in point Legion, when it got free support in theme it started winning big.
I'm all up for beast/support point cost shaving to alleviate the support bloat problem, just don't forget Fury 4+ beasts should cost premium by any metric because they can one-round things which Focus/Fury 3 cannot.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 12:26:03 GMT
You're kinda fusing all the factions together and creating THE ULTIMATE FACTION. Cygnar gets complaints for having too much support stuff in the form of Junior, or its jacks being too triksy and supportive Menoth gets complaints for its easy support access Khador gets complaints for its jacks being too good Cryx...Uh...Aperantly nobody liked Cryx jacks. I don't think I am. Khador's not the only Warmachine faction with effective cheap jacks (even though the others arguably have more reasons not to capitalize on theirs as much because they have other strengths to lean on), and strong support solos or small units show up in multiples across most Warmachine factions too. Heck, even Cryx has stuff like Dark Shroud on non-jack models and whatnot. And they'd love a jack with a good enough support quality to make it worth fielding, since they'd love any new jacks actually worth fielding. Keep in mind I'm not complaining about the Warmachine factions having it too good. I think that by and large they are where they should be. I do think it's a little disingenuous to say Warmachine factions would love heavies with strong, potentially faction-defining support abilities and Hordes factions should be happy with having that in a number of instances without acknowledging how the differences between the two types of factions make that a lot more palatable for the former.Some would, some wouldn't, but IMO it's about the jack and not the faction. It's a faction high point for both Menoth and Khador to have no-frills cheap, durable beatsticks in the forms of juggernauts and crusaders which in practicality end up quite close, and in truth most players of both factions don't want those to change. However, Khador has the ...marauder? the steamvent one that is a warjack capable of doing a cloudwall. That's AWESOME, it's totally a support thing, it's basically a defensive animus they don't have to pay for. rather than trying to put animi into warmachine, like say as imprints so the castigator suddenly gets grab and smash or something, I think a better thought experiment would be to drop a "blank" beast into hordes. Heck, playtest one. Drop rage, a fury, and.....maybe 3 points off a mauler, call it the bruiser, and see if you like it. That's not snark it's an actual suggestion. There could easily be room for stuff like this if we can get PP to take notice.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 7, 2017 12:30:12 GMT
I'm all up for beast/support point cost shaving to alleviate the support bloat problem, just don't forget Fury 4+ beasts should cost premium by any metric because they can one-round things which Focus/Fury 3 cannot. It's a little (well, a lot really) more complicated than that. In Legion for instance Fury 4 starts at 17 points. On the Angelius, which hits like a lightweight other than having one armor-piercing * attack. There isn't much it can one-round several cheaper Heavy jacks can't, even with that one extra point of Fury. Premium cost is, from where I'm standing, rarely justifiable by any single big quality. It's a package deal and several aspects of the package should warrant paying a little bit extra.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 7, 2017 12:40:11 GMT
Just to reiterate to the thread as the OP, I'm aware that this analysis was largely made in a vacuum. However, moving off of it, how many other factions would welcome with a statline similar to the Juggernaut or Crusader? Conversely, would the WM factions take something like a Gladiator or Feral for access to their animi?(assuming everything was properly converted over.) As for the notion of faction buffs, part of the reason I left them out was for simplicity sake of remembering and applying all the applicable buffs. Secondly, at least in my experience playing and reading, when someone brings up support models, someone will always bring up their counters. For example, Passage makes my jacks immune to gunlines. But then my opponent just brings someone with Arcane Ammo or Wraithbane. Then it devolves into a hypothetical super list that brings the entire faction roster. For what its worth, I included Rage and Warp Strength in my calculations because they were self-contained within the model itself, assuming it could be forced. Finally some for those who have been following this thread: 1) In the case of Hordes, how often do you run your beasts hot, with the expectation that some of them will die/frenzy next turn? 1a) Does it end up mattering if the beasts die/frenzy the turn afterward? Or are you far enough ahead in attrition, scenario or assassination that it doesn't matter? 2) Do people fully commit to the destruction of heavies in melee? This would impact the usefulness of healing since it was brought up as a advantage of Hordes. 3)Mostly out of curiosity, what are the current top tournament factions vs the general perceived strength of the factions? I'd take the shit out of a jack that gave +2 spd and pathfinder or blessed and magic, or +3 str to other jacks, or a 2" place. That would be freaking awesome. No problem, just increase their point cost by 50% and make them spend 1 to 2 focus to use those abilities and we're even. to answer the bullets: 1 - I run very few beasts, even as a Legion player, I've hardly played any games with more than 3 (normally 2 heavies and a light). So yes I do always run "hot" for the caster. No matter the fury expenditure I expect anything I commit to die the next turn. 1a - Never ahead in piece trading. If it survives I have to do everything i can to keep it from frenzying since it's an asset i didn't plan on having that turn and that's a huge swing in my favor. 2 - Broken record but Legion beasts don't survive the counter attack. Run it through oddsmachine and see how favorable the Juggernaut is over a Carnivean (NO spiny growth. I have to spend that fury killing something). Since beasts can be healed i see people focus them consistently but it never requires much in the way of resources. Now on the flip side, I do purposefully leave jacks crippled instead of focusing to one-round them. It's just too many resources for me to do so and I can weather the crippled counter punch far better. 3 - I don't follow tournaments. I can say though that Father Lucant arm/box spam makes Khador jack spam look like a walk in the park.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 7, 2017 14:15:23 GMT
Just to clarify my question about warmachine "animi," would people take them if they were imprints on a 15+ point model?
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 14:25:18 GMT
Just to clarify my question about warmachine "animi," would people take them if they were imprints on a 15+ point model? As with beasts, depends on the imprint. You have to factor in high fury and high initials compared to a hard cap of 3 focus, with usually 6 or 7 to split between all of the jacks and caster.
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Arcaux
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 7, 2017 14:33:57 GMT
Just to clarify my question about warmachine "animi," would people take them if they were imprints on a 15+ point model? As with beasts, depends on the imprint. You have to factor in high fury and high initials compared to a hard cap of 3 focus, with usually 6 or 7 to split between all of the jacks and caster. And yet all of the Warmachine factions have access to Empower. The Jacks have less attacks, but they also hit harder, are cheaper and have more boxes.
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