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Post by jisidro on Jun 2, 2017 15:54:03 GMT
octaviusmaximus - Disagree on a lot, not on this. But this models of meta is widely supported. The WMH version was gunline vs WM Spam vs Heavy spam or something like this... ForEver_Blight - I'm pretty sure that if there is an issue with Karchev ARM/Box spam it won't be him, it'll be the jacks themselves. I get the feeling it's a theme game now. And with neverending models come neverending themes... or updates.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 2, 2017 17:02:00 GMT
Which is great in a game when you only use your hands and losing loses you 5 seconds of your life. Karchev probably shouldn't lose to anyone who isn't eHaley, so look forward to seeing more of her because you can't risk not playing her. If a single casters list stops a faction unreasonably (such as reducing their potential lists to combat that caster to 1 or 0) then that is OP and needs to be changed. If you removed the Counter Charge spell from Karchev he would be far more reasonable. No more random 7" threat extensions because your opponent tries to charge your models, no more Karchev being completely unassailable by short ranged guns due to counter charge. etc etc. but the exact same thing could be said for Haley. No faction has a 100% answer to her. No faction has a 100% answer to Karchev. Karchev has already lost plenty. We need way more time to tell if it's actually a problem. SR 2017 hasn't even been released officially. Wait for table time. So back to topic; Themes - do we actually have any concrete info on just how many themes they intend to make? 5? 6? or is it literally a never ending process? Well, I don't think PP has said. But regarding Cygnar as a base model, we'll probably have Known/released: Storm Division (storm stuff) Heavy Metal (warjacks+sword knights) Sons of the Tempest (Gun mages) Grave Diggers (trenchers) Unknown: Morrowan theme CRS (Cygnaran Recon Service: rangers, black 13, stealthy stuff) Maybe a traditional arms theme for long gunners, idk All of that would cover all of Cygnar. So, there'll probably be 6-7 themes per faction with thematic structure. After that there might be special themes every once in a while. I doubt that PP will just stop making themes. But it will be special themes like King Maker or the Llalese one that is rumored. Personally, I hope they do lots of CID cycles that are just themes and get the weaker ones up to snuff.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 2, 2017 17:18:00 GMT
Well, I don't think PP has said. But regarding Cygnar as a base model, we'll probably have Known/released: Storm Division (storm stuff) Heavy Metal (warjacks+sword knights) Sons of the Tempest (Gun mages) Grave Diggers (trenchers) Unknown: Morrowan theme CRS (Cygnaran Recon Service: rangers, black 13, stealthy stuff) Maybe a traditional arms theme for long gunners, idk All of that would cover all of Cygnar. So, there'll probably be 6-7 themes per faction with thematic structure. After that there might be special themes every once in a while. I doubt that PP will just stop making themes. But it will be special themes like King Maker or the Llalese one that is rumored. Personally, I hope they do lots of CID cycles that are just themes and get the weaker ones up to snuff. Jaws of the Wolf shows that you can smash together two elements that previously had no particular connection to make a theme (Remember all the Khador lore where Manhunters and Kayazy hang out with the jack brigades? Me neither.), so it might be a bit more liberal than that.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Jun 2, 2017 17:21:28 GMT
Except there are. Hellmouth, Wrong Eye, and Character beasts. I'm going to once again point to JVM's lists from the SOO where he took Saeryn & Rhyas out of theme. Second place in the SOO IG Jeremy McClure also brought the twins, also out of theme. There are good reasons to play outside of Oracles, and players do choose to play out of theme. I see. I'm not that well versed with Legion so I'll just have to trust you on that. I was just trying to clear up a perceived misunderstanding in this thread. What I am nervous about though is the trend we are seeing. Right now there's a pretty good distribution between theme and non-theme lists. Will that still be the case in a year or two? Are the current non-theme lists just there because the right theme for them has not been released yet? Can I still play my own lists two years from now or will I have to take the pre-constructed route to not be massively outclassed? I really wish both approaches (theme and non-theme) would stay valid in the long run, but with the massive points benefits from themes I am not seeing it. The current weakness of theme forces is their lack of flexibility (outside of factions like Cygnar or Khador, the former having very obviously strong themes that grant amazing solos for free and the latter having very flexible themes with great benefits). Once more theme forces are released this will be diminished and I fear we will only see theme forces. Which is a shame because I like building my own lists with the models I enjoy, not have PP build them for me. Personally I do think both Theme & NonTheme lists are going to be valid in two years. I also think in that time 80%+ of lists are going to be played in theme for the simple reason that people are lazy. Not all, but many theme lists either build themselves or make list building much easier since there are much less options. Good NonTheme lists require a lot more thought and effort to build, and many players that don't have a lot of time to dedicate to refining & play testing lists will probably default to playing lists they know are good which will by and large be theme forces since they're a known quantity. There are still people who love to innovate, and I'm sure they'll find a fair amount of NonTheme lists that can compete against themes once the hype of these new themes dies down, but right now many of these players are innovating new lists in theme because the themes are the newest things they got to play around with. I also believe every faction has casters that have such amazing synergy with model combinations out of theme that they would need a completely broken theme force to always separate them from these existing synergies. My example of that in Cryx is Scaverous. There will never be a Cryx theme force that allows Scaverous to take both Croe's Cutthroats and Wrone Eye and those two models are so disgustingly good with him that I can't even fathom a theme force that would make me not heavily consider breaking theme for them. Croe's are already a great shooting unit, but they're absolutely disgusting with Telekenisis in play. Wrong Eye's always great, but he goes insane when Scaverous can force rerolls. Now all of a sudden you have to hit my high defense models under star-crossed twice just to land a hit, combine with the fact Erebus, Scaverous's character heavy, has Poltergeist. Yes, I'm 100% willing to give up free points for this synergy, because in many matchups it's that good
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 2, 2017 17:22:37 GMT
Well, I don't think PP has said. But regarding Cygnar as a base model, we'll probably have Known/released: Storm Division (storm stuff) Heavy Metal (warjacks+sword knights) Sons of the Tempest (Gun mages) Grave Diggers (trenchers) Unknown: Morrowan theme CRS (Cygnaran Recon Service: rangers, black 13, stealthy stuff) Maybe a traditional arms theme for long gunners, idk All of that would cover all of Cygnar. So, there'll probably be 6-7 themes per faction with thematic structure. After that there might be special themes every once in a while. I doubt that PP will just stop making themes. But it will be special themes like King Maker or the Llalese one that is rumored. Personally, I hope they do lots of CID cycles that are just themes and get the weaker ones up to snuff. Jaws of the Wolf shows that you can smash together two elements that previously had no particular connection to make a theme (Remember all the Khador lore where Manhunters and Kayazy hang out with the jack brigades? Me neither.), so it might be a bit more liberal than that. Totally I'm just saying that with Cygnar, it's been very predictable. Storm stuff, jacks, gun mages, trenchers. So for Cygnar, I can make a reasonable guess at how many themes to expect. From there, I also guess that the main factions will have a similar number of themes.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 2, 2017 17:26:05 GMT
Personally I do think both Theme & NonTheme lists are going to be valid in two years. I also think in that time 80%+ of lists are going to be played in theme for the simple reason that people are lazy. Not all, but many theme lists either build themselves or make list building much easier since there are much less options. Good NonTheme lists require a lot more thought and effort to build, and many players that don't have a lot of time to dedicate to refining & play testing lists will probably default to playing lists they know are good which will by and large be theme forces since they're a known quantity. There are still people who love to innovate, and I'm sure they'll find a fair amount of NonTheme lists that can compete against themes once the hype of these new themes dies down, but right now many of these players are innovating new lists in theme because the themes are the newest things they got to play around with. I also believe every faction has casters that have such amazing synergy with model combinations out of theme that they would need a completely broken theme force to always separate them from these existing synergies. My example of that in Cryx is Scaverous. There will never be a Cryx theme force that allows Scaverous to take both Croe's Cutthroats and Wrone Eye and those two models are so disgustingly good with him that I can't even fathom a theme force that would make me not heavily consider breaking theme for them. Croe's are already a great shooting unit, but they're absolutely disgusting with Telekenisis in play. Wrong Eye's always great, but he goes insane when Scaverous can force rerolls. Now all of a sudden you have to hit my high defense models under star-crossed twice just to land a hit, combine with the fact Erebus, Scaverous's character heavy, has Poltergeist. Yes, I'm 100% willing to give up free points for this synergy, because in many matchups it's that good That reasoning falls apart a bit when you see the themes that do allow synergy or comboes of equivalent power (Vlad1 Rocketeers, Fyanna2 flying circus, etc), and which then hand out some free stuff on top of it.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 2, 2017 18:39:13 GMT
That reasoning falls apart a bit when you see the themes that do allow synergy or comboes of equivalent power (Vlad1 Rocketeers, Fyanna2 flying circus, etc), and which then hand out some free stuff on top of it. But again this is arguing a single caster in an entire faction with a single theme of many with more to come. A fraction of a fraction is not something to rewrite the books about. Fyanna has plenty of counter play and mechanics that break her only trick. Vlad isn't handing out true sight or gun threat extension. So the rockets can't hit stealth and you know exactly how far he can shoot. Now does that mean they are perfect the way they are. No, it's not that concrete. Could S&P be changed to melee attacks only and make it a cheaper spell? Yes. Would it invalidate the caster? Not really; he was likely intended to be a power house melee army leader. Fyanna I truthfully can't see how it could be impossible to play against, but then I have in depth experience with the faction so I know exactly what shuts it down. Maybe the feat shouldn't grant dodge. Maybe riposte instead. Or move Overtake to the feat in place of the dodge and let her hand out field marshal pathfinder. Then non-flying heavies, lights, and lessers could get more viability with her. Idk. But the problems are not the themes themselves. All the issues people have with them can be done outside of theme before hand. It's the idea that free support is broken, even though everyone has equal capability to gain free supports. People are really harping on this but how many of you want to give up all the "free" point bonuses and get nothing in return? Because there's is no viable alternative that is equivalent to their purpose.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Jun 2, 2017 21:55:40 GMT
That reasoning falls apart a bit when you see the themes that do allow synergy or comboes of equivalent power (Vlad1 Rocketeers, Fyanna2 flying circus, etc), and which then hand out some free stuff on top of it. I don't see how the reasoning falls apart at all unless every other model combination Vlad1 can take has been tested and found to be 100% worse than Winter Guard Kommand. People know Winter Guard Kommand & Oracles work, but at the moment nobody's really experimenting with the casters that like these theme force outside of theme. Sure Fyanna2 Flying Circus is a great list, but maybe there's a Fyanna2 list out there that's just as good that takes advantage of models that the theme can't bring in order to help fix particular problem matchups. Maybe your build adds a Sacral Vault because your pair has major issues with Ghost Fleet & the Sacral Vault can shoot Revenant crew Leaders to take control of them and make the unit lose its recursion permanently (I know that's not the best example since Fyanna's not the best Cryx drop and it's likely her pair that would add the SV, but Ghost Fleet is the current new list that's catching people unprepared). Right now few people are experimenting with out of theme options because themes are new and shiny, but people have started to realize the restrictions of themes are very real and cause problems where their themes might not be able to answer the questions other themes pose. It's the reason Ghost Fleet is so dominant right now, it's very good into the majority of theme forces since many theme forces have no RFP and few Magic Weapons. Every faction has options available to it that answer Ghost Fleet very well, but many factions don't have options that can be taken in theme, like a Sacral Vault in Legion, or their great options are attached to casters that most people don't consider like how Khador's best answer to Ghost Fleet is Sorscha2 who I see widely criticized as bad.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 2, 2017 22:15:22 GMT
That reasoning falls apart a bit when you see the themes that do allow synergy or comboes of equivalent power (Vlad1 Rocketeers, Fyanna2 flying circus, etc), and which then hand out some free stuff on top of it. But again this is arguing a single caster in an entire faction with a single theme of many with more to come. A fraction of a fraction is not something to rewrite the books about. Fyanna has plenty of counter play and mechanics that break her only trick. Vlad isn't handing out true sight or gun threat extension. So the rockets can't hit stealth and you know exactly how far he can shoot. Now does that mean they are perfect the way they are. No, it's not that concrete. Could S&P be changed to melee attacks only and make it a cheaper spell? Yes. Would it invalidate the caster? Not really; he was likely intended to be a power house melee army leader. I wasn't arguing that those two are unbeatable. But you can't argue with a straight face that they're WEAK, or that they'd be unusably weak out of theme. My point was that themes aren't just buffing weak stuff into usability, they're also taking good stuff and giving it boosts that are completely unneeded. Future themes will only "shake up the meta" and displace stuff like that if they're even more powerful.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 2, 2017 22:20:23 GMT
I don't see how the reasoning falls apart at all unless every other model combination Vlad1 can take has been tested and found to be 100% worse than Winter Guard Kommand. People know Winter Guard Kommand & Oracles work, but at the moment nobody's really experimenting with the casters that like these theme force outside of theme. Sure Fyanna2 Flying Circus is a great list, but maybe there's a Fyanna2 list out there that's just as good that takes advantage of models that the theme can't bring in order to help fix particular problem matchups. Maybe your build adds a Sacral Vault because your pair has major issues with Ghost Fleet & the Sacral Vault can shoot Revenant crew Leaders to take control of them and make the unit lose its recursion permanently (I know that's not the best example since Fyanna's not the best Cryx drop and it's likely her pair that would add the SV, but Ghost Fleet is the current new list that's catching people unprepared). Right now few people are experimenting with out of theme options because themes are new and shiny, but people have started to realize the restrictions of themes are very real and cause problems where their themes might not be able to answer the questions other themes pose. It's the reason Ghost Fleet is so dominant right now, it's very good into the majority of theme forces since many theme forces have no RFP and few Magic Weapons. Every faction has options available to it that answer Ghost Fleet very well, but many factions don't have options that can be taken in theme, like a Sacral Vault in Legion, or their great options are attached to casters that most people don't consider like how Khador's best answer to Ghost Fleet is Sorscha2 who I see widely criticized as bad. I can see how that's good in theory, but I'm not thrilled about the prospect of more list chicken or gear-check lists that you win or lose against in list building.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 3, 2017 2:01:23 GMT
Here is the thing though you actually get a greater number of different models played with themes being prevalent than without. With the free points you see a bunch of lieutenant jakes and nyss on hellion. outside of theme you pretty much only see the things that are massively above the curve. So much so that every list seems similar examples; storm lances (i know storm division didn't help there), sentry stones, raptors, and hell mouths. Without themes you would see those models in every list. At least with themes you see new and "interesting" spam lists and some casters that would never make the table without themes see play. Example zerkova1, she plays in the iron fang theme better than any caster in khador (maybe vlad 2 I have not had a chance to try it out yet). So if you want to vomit iron fang all over everything you play her. Without the theme she suffers from existential ennui, a sadness with no real reason to exist, a feeling we have in common. So....fix point costs? The problem isn't that themes do get underplayed models into play, because even Stannis Brocker is pretty good at 0pts. But it's not evenly distributed. When themes become "take the 10 Storm Lances you were taking anyway with the restriction that you can't take things you weren't going to take anyway, have all the support you were going to take for free", then we're back to Machinations of Shadow. They did. You getting a rebate of a free model is the costing them appropriately. I would never own a jakes or nyss on hellion otherwise.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 3, 2017 2:09:50 GMT
So....fix point costs? The problem isn't that themes do get underplayed models into play, because even Stannis Brocker is pretty good at 0pts. But it's not evenly distributed. When themes become "take the 10 Storm Lances you were taking anyway with the restriction that you can't take things you weren't going to take anyway, have all the support you were going to take for free", then we're back to Machinations of Shadow. They did. You getting a rebate of a free model is the costing them appropriately. I would never own a jakes or nyss on hellion otherwise. A. That's not the same as fixing the point cost. If a model is overcosted, it will still never be paid for, and it will be used in theme only to the extent that it's superior to the other possible free models. B. Neither of those are good examples - Jakes is not a bad Jr. by by any means, and I was using her to good effect even before Heavy Metal. Her main issue is that Jr. is straight better in most lists, and you often have a hard time fitting two Journeymen into an average list. The Hellion is a point overcosted. That's all. If it was worse than that, you still wouldn't see them in Oracles, because forsaken/other choices would still be better.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 3, 2017 2:39:12 GMT
They did. You getting a rebate of a free model is the costing them appropriately. I would never own a jakes or nyss on hellion otherwise. A. That's not the same as fixing the point cost. If a model is overcosted, it will still never be paid for, and it will be used in theme only to the extent that it's superior to the other possible free models. B. Neither of those are good examples - Jakes is not a bad Jr. by by any means, and I was using her to good effect even before Heavy Metal. Her main issue is that Jr. is straight better in most lists, and you often have a hard time fitting two Journeymen into an average list. The Hellion is a point overcosted. That's all. If it was worse than that, you still wouldn't see them in Oracles, because forsaken/other choices would still be better. A lot of the free theme force models are terrible and would never see table without themes. How low do we have to go to make stannis broker playable? 3 pts (close there, dirty meg possibly does something, plus cool gun)? I cannot foresee him making it in as a 4 verendrye is there he sucks too but at least he does something minor while sucking. So that leaves 2 pts, sure ok I would take him at 2 pts, he is better than a grenadier (barely). Jakes and the hellions are an excellent example as they are in the same boat. If you open up the other playable models in the faction in open competition vs jakes and the hellion they lose even with point reductions. Jakes has no place in a competitive list, she is a liability that had no reason to exist pre theme. Fair point value for her is 0. You get the benefit of not having to fund her jack and pls 2 threat/def at the cost of being anchored to a flimsy battery that if played without extreme caution will be a huge swing if she dies. The hellion at 5 would see no relevant increase in play. It has to contend with deathstalkers, hellmouth, and just more points in heavies. It is very unlikely it makes it in over any of those.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 3, 2017 2:55:27 GMT
Doesn't mean they have to nerf it, but it does mean they might. It would be crossing the line of overcautious nerfing for me. Like really? I found Iron Fangs Shot down before. Shield Wall Means they move slowly up the field. Giving much more chances for them being shot down. I don't mind nerfing spam, I hate messing up perfectly fine caster design. Kharchev did not need a nerf. That nerf made taking Any of the Berserker chassis a completely bad idea despite really being iconic with him. Same thing with Jacks: Casting that spell requires 4 Focus already leaving him only 3 to hand out at the end. Jacks are fine with him. If the list is jaws then your loosing rockets. Yeah I know. Butchered her horribly in an utterly nonsensical way. Actually haley 1 was changed due to her interactions with the hurricane as per a pagani Facebook post. I will see if I can dredge it up. It was not that it was unbeatable or even overpowered it was just unbearably awful to play against.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 3, 2017 3:01:07 GMT
It would be crossing the line of overcautious nerfing for me. Like really? I found Iron Fangs Shot down before. Shield Wall Means they move slowly up the field. Giving much more chances for them being shot down. I don't mind nerfing spam, I hate messing up perfectly fine caster design. Kharchev did not need a nerf. That nerf made taking Any of the Berserker chassis a completely bad idea despite really being iconic with him. Same thing with Jacks: Casting that spell requires 4 Focus already leaving him only 3 to hand out at the end. Jacks are fine with him. If the list is jaws then your loosing rockets. Yeah I know. Butchered her horribly in an utterly nonsensical way. Actually haley 1 was changed due to her interactions with the hurricane as per a pagani Facebook post. I will see if I can dredge it up. It was not that it was unbeatable or even overpowered it was just unbearably awful to play against. Sure. Still, I can't forgive the crumby job they did. The spd debuff in her cmd is ridiculous. And dropping her wjp was just salt in the wound. I'll concede that she may have needed to change. But there are so many better ways they could have done a better job.
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