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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 2, 2017 10:04:08 GMT
But Winter Guard Command also grants an ability to Winter Guard models on top of that. Actually, it doesn't. It Grants Sac Pawn to casters, and Benefits to Warjacks. Legion of Steel Grants Countercharge to Iron Fang Solos, and Advanced Move for 1 Unit, but those are generally not complained about. Really if some other benefit had to be granted to ALL Iron Fang Units on top of whatever else Solos bring it would have to be something ridiculous because otherwise Solo abilities mainly have them covered in what they want.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 2, 2017 10:32:30 GMT
But Winter Guard Command also grants an ability to Winter Guard models on top of that. Actually, it doesn't. It Grants Sac Pawn to casters, and Benefits to Warjacks. Legion of Steel Grants Countercharge to Iron Fang Solos, and Advanced Move for 1 Unit, but those are generally not complained about. Really if some other benefit had to be granted to ALL Iron Fang Units on top of whatever else Solos bring it would have to be something ridiculous because otherwise Solo abilities mainly have them covered in what they want. As someone that plays against a lot of Khador players:
Legion of Steel: Really strong with two casters: Strakhov2 and Zerkova1. If anything about this list is problematic it might be Markov. When playing against it he's usually the highest priority. The list does have weaknesses, but it can also be super rough.
Winter Guard: Outside of Vlad1 I actually think it's fine. I think they might change Signs and Portents for Hand of Fate in the next errata to be honest.
Both themes are great and see play all the time. Winter guard outside of Vlad1 is nice for keeping casters safer, but it's hardly game breaking.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 2, 2017 11:03:20 GMT
Legion of Steel: Really strong with two casters: Strakhov2 and Zerkova1. If anything about this list is problematic it might be Markov. He's not Granted as a free solo though, I don't see anything "Problematic" about him. It won't happen. First of all that's an iconic spell that existed on the caster ever since MKI. Plenty of other spells match it in power, and some people even get half of its effect for free every turn on a focus 8 caster. Second, of all, you can't just do that. It would mean retooling him completly, as hes designed around that one spell. He would be massively upgraded in the support department, but would somehow have to be different from Vlad 2 whos pretty much Vlad 1 but with HOF already. Also if Rocket spam is such a problem what will happen is probably a Slight nerf to Rockets (Pow 14 probably) instead. And lastly if that actually DOES happen I'm hunting you down and kicking you in the shin personally.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 2, 2017 11:22:42 GMT
Legion of Steel: Really strong with two casters: Strakhov2 and Zerkova1. If anything about this list is problematic it might be Markov. He's not Granted as a free solo though, I don't see anything "Problematic" about him. It won't happen. First of all that's an iconic spell that existed on the caster ever since MKI. Plenty of other spells match it in power, and some people even get half of its effect for free every turn on a focus 8 caster. Second, of all, you can't just do that. It would mean retooling him completly, as hes designed around that one spell. He would be massively upgraded in the support department, but would somehow have to be different from Vlad 2 whos pretty much Vlad 1 but with HOF already. Also if Rocket spam is such a problem what will happen is probably a Slight nerf to Rockets (Pow 14 probably) instead. And lastly if that actually DOES happen I'm hunting you down and kicking you in the shin personally. Not that I'm advocating a nerf, but you should never say never. Tempral barrier got gutted, so it can happen to s&p.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 2, 2017 11:25:12 GMT
Not that I'm advocating a nerf, but you should never say never. Tempral barrier got gutted, so it can happen to s&p. True. Maybe they will make it so its got a distance of 3 inches or something.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 2, 2017 11:27:12 GMT
He's not Granted as a free solo though, I don't see anything "Problematic" about him. I didn't say he was granted for free. The main issue is mostly that the IFP can sit as a huge brick, which is immune to most shooting because of it's high armour and immune to most infantry, because precision striking hard hitting solos can Counter Charge you the moment you go at it in melee. Now whether that's too much is up for debate, I didn't say it was, but I did say Markov "MIGHT" be problematic, because the list feels incredibly strong when played by a good player. Doesn't mean they have to nerf it, but it does mean they might.
I find it very strange that you would rather they nerf rockets which are so good with so many casters than nerf one spell on one caster. What are the other options?
- Leave it alone. They might, it does badly into stealth or incorporeal. Some Khador players have already moved away from it, because of Ghost Fleet.
- Increase the cost of all your jacks: Incredibly unlikely that they would, because that's too much work and it hurts the rest of the faction too much. That said, there is no denying that 5 heavies under Vlad1's feat and Signs and Portents is very strong when combined with the gunline.
- Place a FA on Rockets, probably 3. Second most likely change, No other caster is really running more than 3 rockets so potentially it's fine. It feels like it hurts the Winterguard theme as whole though as casters like Strakhov2 could definitely run 6. Also PP haven't accepted FA limiting as a good idea yet.
When you look at those options nerfing Signs and portents is definitely a possibility. I understand it's iconic, but they did do it with Haley1. Maybe they might make it range Control, like Haley1. I think Vlad would still be super playable as you could keep all the rockets near him, but the jacks wouldn't get it on feat turn.
This whole post isn't a whinge about Khador btw, If they don't change them it will probably still be ok. I'm just intrigued to see which way they go.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 2, 2017 11:36:18 GMT
Doesn't mean they have to nerf it, but it does mean they might. It would be crossing the line of overcautious nerfing for me. Like really? I found Iron Fangs Shot down before. Shield Wall Means they move slowly up the field. Giving much more chances for them being shot down. I don't mind nerfing spam, I hate messing up perfectly fine caster design. Kharchev did not need a nerf. That nerf made taking Any of the Berserker chassis a completely bad idea despite really being iconic with him. Same thing with Jacks: Casting that spell requires 4 Focus already leaving him only 3 to hand out at the end. Jacks are fine with him. If the list is jaws then your loosing rockets. Yeah I know. Butchered her horribly in an utterly nonsensical way.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 2, 2017 11:37:24 GMT
Here is the thing though you actually get a greater number of different models played with themes being prevalent than without. With the free points you see a bunch of lieutenant jakes and nyss on hellion. outside of theme you pretty much only see the things that are massively above the curve. So much so that every list seems similar examples; storm lances (i know storm division didn't help there), sentry stones, raptors, and hell mouths. Without themes you would see those models in every list. At least with themes you see new and "interesting" spam lists and some casters that would never make the table without themes see play. Example zerkova1, she plays in the iron fang theme better than any caster in khador (maybe vlad 2 I have not had a chance to try it out yet). So if you want to vomit iron fang all over everything you play her. Without the theme she suffers from existential ennui, a sadness with no real reason to exist, a feeling we have in common. So....fix point costs? The problem isn't that themes do get underplayed models into play, because even Stannis Brocker is pretty good at 0pts. But it's not evenly distributed. When themes become "take the 10 Storm Lances you were taking anyway with the restriction that you can't take things you weren't going to take anyway, have all the support you were going to take for free", then we're back to Machinations of Shadow.
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Post by dicebedamned on Jun 2, 2017 12:47:24 GMT
I think a lot of themes could be fixed by making the free solos part non names solos... Suddenly no Strangeways, no Jakes, no <insert no brainer when free names solo here>. I think a lot of the issue here is that PP have not thought through what happens when, a bunch of really good solos who normally do not get taken together due to their high costs, get taken together because its free. This issue is made worse when you look at the jack themes where X jack points gives more of these 'super solos', because not only can the player now take all the named solos, but they get to buy ANOTHER jack with the points they would have had to spend anyways, which then in turn leads towards yet MORE FREE POINTS.
PP clearly want jacks and beasts to be what WMH is all about, fine. They also want themes to be the way that everything is played, fine. But don't give free stuff for taking X beasts, it just makes the themes no brainers. the issue we are seeing at the moment is that there are too many themes out there that are no brainers. A theme should be restrictive. It should encourage the player to play differently to how they would usually with the faction, it should not be an excuse to play 30 points up just because.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 2, 2017 13:14:42 GMT
Doesn't mean they have to nerf it, but it does mean they might. It would be crossing the line of overcautious nerfing for me. Like really? I found Iron Fangs Shot down before. Shield Wall Means they move slowly up the field. Giving much more chances for them being shot down. I don't mind nerfing spam, I hate messing up perfectly fine caster design. Kharchev did not need a nerf. That nerf made taking Any of the Berserker chassis a completely bad idea despite really being iconic with him. Same thing with Jacks: Casting that spell requires 4 Focus already leaving him only 3 to hand out at the end. Jacks are fine with him. If the list is jaws then your loosing rockets. Yeah I know. Butchered her horribly in an utterly nonsensical way. Lol, karchev still needs more nerfs. He really needs to lose battle charged. In 2017 he becomes close to unkillable, unbeatable on scenario and hardly able to be beaten on attrition.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 2, 2017 13:22:38 GMT
It would be crossing the line of overcautious nerfing for me. Like really? I found Iron Fangs Shot down before. Shield Wall Means they move slowly up the field. Giving much more chances for them being shot down. I don't mind nerfing spam, I hate messing up perfectly fine caster design. Kharchev did not need a nerf. That nerf made taking Any of the Berserker chassis a completely bad idea despite really being iconic with him. Same thing with Jacks: Casting that spell requires 4 Focus already leaving him only 3 to hand out at the end. Jacks are fine with him. If the list is jaws then your loosing rockets. Yeah I know. Butchered her horribly in an utterly nonsensical way. Lol, karchev still needs more nerfs. He really needs to lose battle charged. In 2017 he becomes close to unkillable, unbeatable on scenario and hardly able to be beaten on attrition. Octavius, you fool! Do not summon the ire of the Khadorans!
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 2, 2017 14:46:53 GMT
Let's see that Karchev madness happen then. If anything he'll be besties with Cygnar/Ret who can probably keep him in check while he keeps other stuff down... I hope I'm wrong, for me he is a great piece of fluff and imagery that they haven't replicated in hordes. I'd love to see a Warbeast/warlock (GO GO KROMAC3!)... Something is overpowered if its overpowered, even if its weak to some factions.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 2, 2017 14:57:37 GMT
Let's see that Karchev madness happen then. If anything he'll be besties with Cygnar/Ret who can probably keep him in check while he keeps other stuff down... I hope I'm wrong, for me he is a great piece of fluff and imagery that they haven't replicated in hordes. I'd love to see a Warbeast/warlock (GO GO KROMAC3!)... Something is overpowered if its overpowered, even if its weak to some factions.
This is a complicated reasoning... Rock is OP to scissors but always beaten by paper, it's part of many metas to have this beat that (with a high degree of certainty) but in turn get beat by something else...
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 2, 2017 15:07:17 GMT
Something is overpowered if its overpowered, even if its weak to some factions.
This is a complicated reasoning... Rock is OP to scissors but always beaten by paper, it's part of many metas to have this beat that (with a high degree of certainty) but in turn get beat by something else...
Which is great in a game when you only use your hands and losing loses you 5 seconds of your life. Karchev probably shouldn't lose to anyone who isn't eHaley, so look forward to seeing more of her because you can't risk not playing her. If a single casters list stops a faction unreasonably (such as reducing their potential lists to combat that caster to 1 or 0) then that is OP and needs to be changed. If you removed the Counter Charge spell from Karchev he would be far more reasonable. No more random 7" threat extensions because your opponent tries to charge your models, no more Karchev being completely unassailable by short ranged guns due to counter charge. etc etc.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 2, 2017 15:14:09 GMT
This is a complicated reasoning... Rock is OP to scissors but always beaten by paper, it's part of many metas to have this beat that (with a high degree of certainty) but in turn get beat by something else...
Which is great in a game when you only use your hands and losing loses you 5 seconds of your life. Karchev probably shouldn't lose to anyone who isn't eHaley, so look forward to seeing more of her because you can't risk not playing her. If a single casters list stops a faction unreasonably (such as reducing their potential lists to combat that caster to 1 or 0) then that is OP and needs to be changed. If you removed the Counter Charge spell from Karchev he would be far more reasonable. No more random 7" threat extensions because your opponent tries to charge your models, no more Karchev being completely unassailable by short ranged guns due to counter charge. etc etc. but the exact same thing could be said for Haley. No faction has a 100% answer to her. No faction has a 100% answer to Karchev. Karchev has already lost plenty. We need way more time to tell if it's actually a problem. SR 2017 hasn't even been released officially. Wait for table time. So back to topic; Themes - do we actually have any concrete info on just how many themes they intend to make? 5? 6? or is it literally a never ending process?
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