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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 8, 2017 21:28:14 GMT
I played the new trencher long gunners tonight. They felt amazing to play, they rocked and kept me in a rough matchup. Regular long gunners don't feel like they do. 11/10, would play again. Who did you play them with? Do they need snipe as badly as their cousins? They seem pretty survivable and shooty. Stryker 3 with a blockhouse. They sat in a trench all game and killed close to 30 winter guard over the course of the game (it was a lord general off with stryker vs Irusk 2 both with infantry spam) Solid ground was super bad for my list, as was irusks feat. But when I survived to get to the end game, my armies resilience really allowed me to smash through. He had to keep away from Finn all game and when he finally got into a unit of winter guard he killed an entire unit of riflemen and Joe. Irusk died to 3 furied trenchers charging him with strykers feat up. Once I got past irusks main offensive turn it was a super fun game.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 8, 2017 23:54:11 GMT
Do you think the Man-o-War Invasion list (Read: 2 max MOW shocktroopers with Kovnik, UA, and Min Mechanics, Conquest, and a Drakhun) would have given you more trouble under Irusk2?
And did you mean to post in the Trencher thread?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 9, 2017 0:31:12 GMT
Do you think the Man-o-War Invasion list (Read: 2 max MOW shocktroopers with Kovnik, UA, and Min Mechanics, Conquest, and a Drakhun) would have given you more trouble under Irusk2? And did you mean to post in the Trencher thread? With stryker 3? Not at all. Pow 14 weapon masters are a hell of a drug.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 9, 2017 13:11:08 GMT
Needing to sell models obvious. But creating a new model that is scarily similar to an existing one and thus nearly invalidating the original seems underhanded. This. I have no problem with PP making NEW models. NEW models are great. I love NEW models. Making Long Gunners 2.0 isn't making NEW models, it's invalidating old models so they you have to buy the new ones. As I said, they could have released a CA that turns Long Gunners into Trenchers and put Long Gunners into the CID, but they chose to make a whole new, better unit than the existing Long Gunners AND a CA. Savethe issue with new models is that either they start introducing ever newer things the factions can do until every faction can accomplish any described task, or they keep making ever more niche models that accomplish less than their general brothers. Just look at the instant dissatisfaction with the trencher express: the prime complaints are that the GMCA or Charger accomplish similar tasks but better. It's a new model though.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 9, 2017 13:21:11 GMT
This. I have no problem with PP making NEW models. NEW models are great. I love NEW models. Making Long Gunners 2.0 isn't making NEW models, it's invalidating old models so they you have to buy the new ones. As I said, they could have released a CA that turns Long Gunners into Trenchers and put Long Gunners into the CID, but they chose to make a whole new, better unit than the existing Long Gunners AND a CA. Savethe issue with new models is that either they start introducing ever newer things the factions can do until every faction can accomplish any described task, or they keep making ever more niche models that accomplish less than their general brothers. Just look at the instant dissatisfaction with the trencher express: the prime complaints are that the GMCA or Charger accomplish similar tasks but better. It's a new model though. You could always balance things with points... Not necessarily creating new powerhouses. Want to make a less efficient GMCA? Fine, make it cost less than the GMCA.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 9, 2017 13:28:38 GMT
the issue with new models is that either they start introducing ever newer things the factions can do until every faction can accomplish any described task, or they keep making ever more niche models that accomplish less than their general brothers. Just look at the instant dissatisfaction with the trencher express: the prime complaints are that the GMCA or Charger accomplish similar tasks but better. It's a new model though. You could always balance things with points... Not necessarily creating new powerhouses. Want to make a less efficient GMCA? Fine, make it cost less than the GMCA. like how he's a less efficient charger that costs less (free, even....) and you won't take him because you could take a charger? My point being that this demonstrably does not work.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 9, 2017 13:37:46 GMT
You could always balance things with points... Not necessarily creating new powerhouses. Want to make a less efficient GMCA? Fine, make it cost less than the GMCA. like how he's a less efficient charger that costs less (free, even....) and you won't take him because you could take a charger? My point being that this demonstrably does not work. It doesn't cost less (per shot) now. A charger costs 9 and has two shots, two express teams cost 10 to boast the same number of shots. If the two express teams costed 8 (4x2) than it would cost less and in some case it could be worth it. And no, they can't counted as free, since for taking them I should not take free Finn or other better options, so I can't see me ever using the theme bonus on the Express team. Even if I ever decide to use it for a simple shot, at that point I would take a cannon crew.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 9, 2017 14:02:27 GMT
A few diferences, it's 2 models not 1. So 2 units it's 4 models and each can shot once. So 4 shots to the chargers 2. They also handle buffs differently...
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Post by Aegis on Jun 9, 2017 14:21:23 GMT
A few diferences, it's 2 models not 1. So 2 units it's 4 models and each can shot once. So 4 shots to the chargers 2. They also handle buffs differently... Well, the shots from the gunners are very unlikely to matter much, since they are shorter range (so likely not in range of anything since you are likely keeping the sniper as far as possible from the enemy) and even if they do they are straight pow 10... Being 1 model is actually better for the Charger, since with one buff (es Snipe) you buff all the shots instead only half of them, and even as resiliency the Charger beats the Express team hands down. That said, Charger is not the only comparison given. GMCA cost the same and can be taken in pairs doing a lot more work than the express team. AT Rifleman cost less, see through steath and do more damage on high arm targets, also chosing the column. Granadier is another superior option with 3 boostable AoE shots at less than the price of 2 teams. With so many options better than the express team, I don't see much space for it at that price tag, and that is why I was a little doubios even before seeing the rules. Since I agree that making a power-house model would not be ideal, I think the only niche the Express Team could get is being a cheap thunderbolt provider, but in that case it has to cost no more than 4 points, otherwise Thorn Gun Mages are my way to go.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 9, 2017 14:21:50 GMT
A few diferences, it's 2 models not 1. So 2 units it's 4 models and each can shot once. So 4 shots to the chargers 2. They also handle buffs differently... Spotter's not shooting.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 9, 2017 15:08:48 GMT
Snipe is model/unit, they are a unit so both get snipe/deadeye amongst others.
Spotter has the choice of shooting or dig in.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 9, 2017 15:50:23 GMT
Snipe is model/unit, they are a unit so both get snipe/deadeye amongst others. Spotter has the choice of shooting or dig in. I don't see Snipe going on the Express team as a credible option... First because actually Snipe is on only a few casters, most of them also not very popular (Sturgis? Caine1?) or in casters that usually play better in other Theme forces (Stryker1, Maddox). I can't understand why people take for granted that Cygnar will have Snipe when the most used casters do not have it... That said, even in the case someone is playing one of those casters with trenchers, why should him put Snipe on the Express team when he could put it on a Granadier, a Charger, on the Trencher Long Gunners or a colossal? There are so many better targets for Snipe in the Cygnar army, that probably the Express team would get it only if they and the caster are the only pieces left on the table... That's why I advice against supposing that it will have Snipe on when evaluating the unit.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 9, 2017 16:07:25 GMT
A few diferences, it's 2 models not 1. So 2 units it's 4 models and each can shot once. So 4 shots to the chargers 2. They also handle buffs differently... Being 1 model is actually better for the Charger, since with one buff (es Snipe) you buff all the shots instead only half of them, and even as resiliency the Charger beats the Express team hands down.
I mentioned Snipe because of this. You brought it up, not me.
I didn't assume anything.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 9, 2017 16:52:47 GMT
Being 1 model is actually better for the Charger, since with one buff (es Snipe) you buff all the shots instead only half of them, and even as resiliency the Charger beats the Express team hands down.
I mentioned Snipe because of this. You brought it up, not me.
I didn't assume anything.
Yes, and I said that being a single model with multiple shots is better since with a single Snipe I buff both shots on the Charger/Granadier, while with two units of Express Team I get to buff only one. Your statement doesn't seem to answer to the point I made.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 10, 2017 3:03:42 GMT
SHUT YOUR DIRTY MOUTH STURGIS IS THE EXEMPLAR OF BALANCE AND IS A FUN CASTER TO PLAY.
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