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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 2, 2017 1:50:23 GMT
I feel that Fyanna has some compelling reasons to use the other themes. She buffs flyers in Ravens and she buffs Swordsmen in Children. And she only loses Forsaken in Children where she's probably running more infantry anyway.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 2, 2017 2:06:05 GMT
I mean, if you're not even asking what the maximum threat ranges of his models are and just blindly walking into charge range then yes, lots of lists are basically unbeatable. That's not an issue with theme lists or balance though. That's a correctable mistake.
I was well aware of his threat ranges. I was also aware that if I only advanced 8" out of my deployment zone on turn 1 that I wouldn't have a chance of contesting scenario at all. I can't go back now and check to see if he cheated by charging out of his control area... but I don't see how else I could have managed the approach. The only LOS blocking terrain on the table was a house off to the side. You did something wrong. Anytime you give up the alpha, get feated on, and alpha'd again you did something wrong. Asking for a fair matchup were that happens is asking too much. Oracles isn't even that good it just allows legion to function. Before oracles pretty much only JVM won consistently with them. Now they are maybe top4? The lists without oracles are terrible, with it, mediocre.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 2, 2017 4:23:20 GMT
I was well aware of his threat ranges. I was also aware that if I only advanced 8" out of my deployment zone on turn 1 that I wouldn't have a chance of contesting scenario at all. I can't go back now and check to see if he cheated by charging out of his control area... but I don't see how else I could have managed the approach. The only LOS blocking terrain on the table was a house off to the side. You did something wrong. Anytime you give up the alpha, get feated on, and alpha'd again you did something wrong. Asking for a fair matchup were that happens is asking too much. Oracles isn't even that good it just allows legion to function. Before oracles pretty much only JVM won consistently with them. Now they are maybe top4? The lists without oracles are terrible, with it, mediocre. 1. I didn't get alpha struck twice. 2. Oracles with fyanna2 is good vs a large amount of factions.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 2, 2017 4:50:00 GMT
Every favtion has an answer to Fyanna 2 Oracles. The question is if that answer fits into a 2 list pairing.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 2, 2017 6:51:24 GMT
I'm fairly certain the point is not that Fyanna2 Oracles is OP. The point is that there's no reason to forego Oracles and play 20p down.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 2, 2017 7:45:34 GMT
I'm fairly certain the point is not that Fyanna2 Oracles is OP. The point is that there's no reason to forego Oracles and play 20p down. Except there are. Hellmouth, Wrong Eye, and Character beasts. I'm going to once again point to JVM's lists from the SOO where he took Saeryn & Rhyas out of theme. Second place in the SOO IG Jeremy McClure also brought the twins, also out of theme. There are good reasons to play outside of Oracles, and players do choose to play out of theme.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 2, 2017 8:05:07 GMT
I'm fairly certain the point is not that Fyanna2 Oracles is OP. The point is that there's no reason to forego Oracles and play 20p down. For better or worse that is the direction PP is taking the game now. Not really much you can do about it.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 2, 2017 8:26:02 GMT
You did something wrong. Anytime you give up the alpha, get feated on, and alpha'd again you did something wrong. Asking for a fair matchup were that happens is asking too much. Oracles isn't even that good it just allows legion to function. Before oracles pretty much only JVM won consistently with them. Now they are maybe top4? The lists without oracles are terrible, with it, mediocre. 1. I didn't get alpha struck twice. 2. Oracles with fyanna2 is good vs a large amount of factions. ok, sure. You played flawlessly by letting them alpha strike you. Your play is beyond reproach, a beacon of glorious light that we can all aspire towards. There are a ton of lists in every faction that are good vs a large amount of factions. What does that matter? That is how it should be. You are looking to beat a list in the construction stage. List building is a binary process, "does the list that will feasibly be dropped into oracles/legion have the tools to win?" Yes or no, easy. If yes great, the entire game is how well you utilize those tools vs how your opponent mitigates them. If no then change things up. You don't have to nuke the matchup from orbit you just need to have a plan that will feasibly work vs your intended match ups and the tools that are necessary to carry out said plan. Literally every faction can do that vs oracles, as it really isn't that scary of a list. Legion did not have the tools to compete out of the gate, with Oracles they now do.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 2, 2017 8:31:24 GMT
I'm fairly certain the point is not that Fyanna2 Oracles is OP. The point is that there's no reason to forego Oracles and play 20p down. Except there are. Hellmouth, Wrong Eye, and Character beasts. I'm going to once again point to JVM's lists from the SOO where he took Saeryn & Rhyas out of theme. Second place in the SOO IG Jeremy McClure also brought the twins, also out of theme. There are good reasons to play outside of Oracles, and players do choose to play out of theme. I see. I'm not that well versed with Legion so I'll just have to trust you on that. I was just trying to clear up a perceived misunderstanding in this thread. What I am nervous about though is the trend we are seeing. Right now there's a pretty good distribution between theme and non-theme lists. Will that still be the case in a year or two? Are the current non-theme lists just there because the right theme for them has not been released yet? Can I still play my own lists two years from now or will I have to take the pre-constructed route to not be massively outclassed? I really wish both approaches (theme and non-theme) would stay valid in the long run, but with the massive points benefits from themes I am not seeing it. The current weakness of theme forces is their lack of flexibility (outside of factions like Cygnar or Khador, the former having very obviously strong themes that grant amazing solos for free and the latter having very flexible themes with great benefits). Once more theme forces are released this will be diminished and I fear we will only see theme forces. Which is a shame because I like building my own lists with the models I enjoy, not have PP build them for me.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 2, 2017 8:42:37 GMT
Except there are. Hellmouth, Wrong Eye, and Character beasts. I'm going to once again point to JVM's lists from the SOO where he took Saeryn & Rhyas out of theme. Second place in the SOO IG Jeremy McClure also brought the twins, also out of theme. There are good reasons to play outside of Oracles, and players do choose to play out of theme. I see. I'm not that well versed with Legion so I'll just have to trust you on that. I was just trying to clear up a perceived misunderstanding in this thread. What I am nervous about though is the trend we are seeing. Right now there's a pretty good distribution between theme and non-theme lists. Will that still be the case in a year or two? Are the current non-theme lists just there because the right theme for them has not been released yet? Can I still play my own lists two years from now or will I have to take the pre-constructed route to not be massively outclassed? I really wish both approaches (theme and non-theme) would stay valid in the long run, but with the massive points benefits from themes I am not seeing it. The current weakness of theme forces is their lack of flexibility (outside of factions like Cygnar or Khador, the former having very obviously strong themes that grant amazing solos for free and the latter having very flexible themes with great benefits). Once more theme forces are released this will be diminished and I fear we will only see theme forces. Which is a shame because I like building my own lists with the models I enjoy, not have PP build them for me. Here is the thing though you actually get a greater number of different models played with themes being prevalent than without. With the free points you see a bunch of lieutenant jakes and nyss on hellion. outside of theme you pretty much only see the things that are massively above the curve. So much so that every list seems similar examples; storm lances (i know storm division didn't help there), sentry stones, raptors, and hell mouths. Without themes you would see those models in every list. At least with themes you see new and "interesting" spam lists and some casters that would never make the table without themes see play. Example zerkova1, she plays in the iron fang theme better than any caster in khador (maybe vlad 2 I have not had a chance to try it out yet). So if you want to vomit iron fang all over everything you play her. Without the theme she suffers from existential ennui, a sadness with no real reason to exist, a feeling we have in common.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 2, 2017 9:22:48 GMT
I like that themes are essentially subfactions/sectorials/etc. that allow some otherwise subpar models to see table time because they make sense in the context and/or are free.
I don't like the fact that often themes are strictly superiour competitively to non-theme. Moreover most non-theme lists feel incomplete which was a big source of frustration from early mk3. I think giving non-themes an equivalent of 1 free solo in points or making them 80 pts base should bring them up to par.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 2, 2017 9:29:54 GMT
Don't get me wrong: I am fine with that. Themes are not the issue. Themes vastly overshadowing non-theme lists will become an issue if the trend continues.
The kind of theme you are talking about is also the good kind. Ones that allow for greater model veriety. But I'd say those are in the minority. For the worst kind of theme, just look at Cygnar. They have two themes that might as well read "take the best stuff in your faction and get all the solos you want anyway for free". Sure, that's mainly a problem of those models (especially the solos) being unbalanced, but the themes did not help.
The only real examples I cn think of where themes do their job as balance patches are the Nyss Sorceress you mentioned and the Revenant Crew.
But whether or not theme forces increase or decrease list veriety is actually irrelevant. The fact remains that if themes and non-themes are both viable you inevitably get a larger veriety of lists than if only one of the two was viable. And that is what I want. But it requires some serious effort which is why I can see why PP would not want it.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 2, 2017 9:40:40 GMT
I like that themes are essentially subfactions/sectorials/etc. that allow some otherwise subpar models to see table time because they make sense in the context and/or are free. I still take issue with this. It is my belief that models should be valid on their own merits, not only because they are free. Some models should just receive a cost reduction to facilitate this, this will also alleviate the "but they get 20 points free" rants, but some need more help than that. This is fine for things like Thorn vs Lancer or Withershadow Combine versus Skarlock Thrall, where the base models aren't necessarily bad, just that the extra cost is usually worth it for added utility. But being forced to play models that are usually bad only because they finally get passable to good in the theme is just bad design. Case in point would be Ghost Fleet, where hardly anyone played Revenants out of theme because they were costly for a very random benefit (D3 recursion), giving them free points and more reliability (D3+1) instantly made them playable, but still not really if you stay out of theme. Base recursion D3+1 and changing the benefit of the theme to something minor would've made them playable outside of theme at least. PS: I do know that some people already played them before the theme, but they were still expensive for little reliability.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 2, 2017 9:56:57 GMT
I think the reason why the "Free Support Solo" Exists. Because in a way they supplant the theme benefit.
Like lets say that the WGI Theme didn't give points and gave some advantage to WGI. That would mean it would have to stack WITH whatever Benefits Joe Granted.
So instead you in a way get Joe as a "Default". In my opinion probably the best they could do to make themes appealing without every theme just VOMITING extra special abilities into every model in it.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 2, 2017 10:00:48 GMT
But Winter Guard Command also grants an ability to Winter Guard models on top of that.
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