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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 1, 2017 13:59:10 GMT
I really implore anyone who thinks Oracles is broken to ask the Legion player to let them play their list outside of theme and see just how crap it is. Then play in theme and see that it's only really just "functional" with the best theme we have. The Power difference is severe comparing out of theme to in theme. You have to realize just how far down we start before we add something that raises the "power" of our army. I don't think anyone has said "take Oracles away". You are being very hostile for someone who "doesn't play it". I think we are all just saying that it needs to be toned down a little bit in the amount of free points or the options available to you in theme ( maybe lose forsakens?). I too did not say anything about taking Oracles away. Nor was that post anything hostile. I don't play Fyanna 2 flying circus in Oracles. That doesn't mean I don't play Oracles. I will be playing it definitively when the Throne CID results come out. I was actually asking people to put table time into the list that they are having a problem with to see for themselves whether it is above the curve or not. It's an appeal to intellectual honesty and sharing/gaining experience.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 1, 2017 14:25:29 GMT
Oracles is a ridiculously good thing and as a Legion player I think it deserves to be nerfed. Also so does every other theme until they're all about the same level as Children of the Dragon. The best themes are ones that rarely see competitive play but help fluff bunnies play something cool and thematic without getting stomped.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 1, 2017 14:28:34 GMT
The best themes are ones that rarely see competitive play but help fluff bunnies play something cool and thematic without getting stomped. So you won't see them and PPs angle doesn't go. Nobody even touched with a 10 Foot pole the "Fluffy" ones in MKII, and I'm not really seeing many people touch Children of Dragon Either. If anything more things should be like Oracles.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 1, 2017 14:42:52 GMT
I don't think anyone has said "take Oracles away". You are being very hostile for someone who "doesn't play it". I think we are all just saying that it needs to be toned down a little bit in the amount of free points or the options available to you in theme ( maybe lose forsakens?). I too did not say anything about taking Oracles away. Nor was that post anything hostile. I don't play Fyanna 2 flying circus in Oracles. That doesn't mean I don't play Oracles. I will be playing it definitively when the Throne CID results come out. I was actually asking people to put table time into the list that they are having a problem with to see for themselves whether it is above the curve or not. It's an appeal to intellectual honesty and sharing/gaining experience. I have played oracles, he went first, he ran everything... I ran my stuff ( not even full run distance) to try to stay out of threats. With slip stream he charged 2 of my heavies ( almost killing them). Looking back now I think he cheated because he then popped feat and tossed it over to me. I checked to see and one of his angels was out of the feat by at least 2". I think he charged the angel out of control range when he charged my jack with it. It's just a lot to deal with considering every single one of his heavies basically gets an extra attack because of the free charge and he can max them all out since he has tons of fury management...
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 1, 2017 14:52:58 GMT
I too did not say anything about taking Oracles away. Nor was that post anything hostile. I don't play Fyanna 2 flying circus in Oracles. That doesn't mean I don't play Oracles. I will be playing it definitively when the Throne CID results come out. I was actually asking people to put table time into the list that they are having a problem with to see for themselves whether it is above the curve or not. It's an appeal to intellectual honesty and sharing/gaining experience. I have played oracles, he went first, he ran everything... I ran my stuff ( not even full run distance) to try to stay out of threats. With slip stream he charged 2 of my heavies ( almost killing them). Looking back now I think he cheated because he then popped feat and tossed it over to me. I checked to see and one of his angels was out of the feat by at least 2". I think he charged the angel out of control range when he charged my jack with it. It's just a lot to deal with considering every single one of his heavies basically gets an extra attack because of the free charge and he can max them all out since he has tons of fury management... I mean, if you're not even asking what the maximum threat ranges of his models are and just blindly walking into charge range then yes, lots of lists are basically unbeatable. That's not an issue with theme lists or balance though. That's a correctable mistake.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 1, 2017 14:57:26 GMT
I have played oracles, he went first, he ran everything... I ran my stuff ( not even full run distance) to try to stay out of threats. With slip stream he charged 2 of my heavies ( almost killing them). Looking back now I think he cheated because he then popped feat and tossed it over to me. I checked to see and one of his angels was out of the feat by at least 2". I think he charged the angel out of control range when he charged my jack with it. It's just a lot to deal with considering every single one of his heavies basically gets an extra attack because of the free charge and he can max them all out since he has tons of fury management... I mean, if you're not even asking what the maximum threat ranges of his models are and just blindly walking into charge range then yes, lots of lists are basically unbeatable. That's not an issue with theme lists or balance though. That's a correctable mistake.
Actually "almost" killing them was good bait. It's not exactly easy to stay out of the threat ranges of Angelii with access to Slip Stream, especially if you don't want to lose too much ground on scenario. It will happen eventually, so might as well make the best of it and draw him out.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 1, 2017 14:59:35 GMT
People are getting too worked up about Fyanna 2 with Oracles, and not taking into account her drawbacks.
Yes an Armour Piercing Blessed pow 17 charge attack is disgusting, however it is only mat 6, Fyanna has no way to fix mat, unless she wants to take the Black Frost Shard and go for the Ice Cages. then she is not maxing on free points.
Yes her feat is effectively a timewalk, but that is nothing new, Ragnor, Doomy 3, Kaelyssa, Rask, Haley 2, Stryker 1, Lucant all have timewalk feats, also hers can be played around if you have the tools (i.e stationary).
Outside of her feat her beasts are still made of paper, wait out the feat, try not to lose too much important stuff and then hit back.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 1, 2017 15:06:03 GMT
I too did not say anything about taking Oracles away. Nor was that post anything hostile. I don't play Fyanna 2 flying circus in Oracles. That doesn't mean I don't play Oracles. I will be playing it definitively when the Throne CID results come out. I was actually asking people to put table time into the list that they are having a problem with to see for themselves whether it is above the curve or not. It's an appeal to intellectual honesty and sharing/gaining experience. I have played oracles, he went first, he ran everything... I ran my stuff ( not even full run distance) to try to stay out of threats. With slip stream he charged 2 of my heavies ( almost killing them). Looking back now I think he cheated because he then popped feat and tossed it over to me. I checked to see and one of his angels was out of the feat by at least 2". I think he charged the angel out of control range when he charged my jack with it. It's just a lot to deal with considering every single one of his heavies basically gets an extra attack because of the free charge and he can max them all out since he has tons of fury management... I didn't mean playing against it. I meant you actually swapping lists and you yourself play as Fyanna and experience it and see if you think it's too powerful. Also, that's called cheating. If he charged out of control then forced that's not following the rules. Unless he had a shepherd within 8 of the model as they have herding. Now, if he charged out and then didn't force he's following the rules. But then at that point he cannot Leech fury so that model would have had to make a frenzy check the next turn. So I think your experience was against a player who didn't correctly follow the rules.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 1, 2017 15:12:34 GMT
I too did not say anything about taking Oracles away. Nor was that post anything hostile. I don't play Fyanna 2 flying circus in Oracles. That doesn't mean I don't play Oracles. I will be playing it definitively when the Throne CID results come out. I was actually asking people to put table time into the list that they are having a problem with to see for themselves whether it is above the curve or not. It's an appeal to intellectual honesty and sharing/gaining experience. I have played oracles, he went first, he ran everything... I ran my stuff ( not even full run distance) to try to stay out of threats. With slip stream he charged 2 of my heavies ( almost killing them). Looking back now I think he cheated because he then popped feat and tossed it over to me. I checked to see and one of his angels was out of the feat by at least 2". I think he charged the angel out of control range when he charged my jack with it. It's just a lot to deal with considering every single one of his heavies basically gets an extra attack because of the free charge and he can max them all out since he has tons of fury management... Tons of Fury management = two Forsaken and the warlock. Because what you describe shouldn't leave the Shepherd (probably just one anyway) close enough. That's not nothing, but if your opponent maxed out half a dozen beasts he's not getting to wipe all that Fury off of all of them either.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 1, 2017 15:21:00 GMT
I too did not say anything about taking Oracles away. Nor was that post anything hostile. I don't play Fyanna 2 flying circus in Oracles. That doesn't mean I don't play Oracles. I will be playing it definitively when the Throne CID results come out. I was actually asking people to put table time into the list that they are having a problem with to see for themselves whether it is above the curve or not. It's an appeal to intellectual honesty and sharing/gaining experience. I have played oracles, he went first, he ran everything... I ran my stuff ( not even full run distance) to try to stay out of threats. With slip stream he charged 2 of my heavies ( almost killing them). Looking back now I think he cheated because he then popped feat and tossed it over to me. I checked to see and one of his angels was out of the feat by at least 2". I think he charged the angel out of control range when he charged my jack with it. It's just a lot to deal with considering every single one of his heavies basically gets an extra attack because of the free charge and he can max them all out since he has tons of fury management... Well, the part where he cheated doesn't matter concerning the power of the theme. Was there a shepard nearby? Cuz they can force beasts, and you mention he had lots of fury management.
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Post by copperflame on Jun 1, 2017 15:23:20 GMT
I believe I stated the following already, but I'll state it again:
I would have rather PP adjusted Legion's ability to run beasts (via point costs or some other series of adjustments) rather than relaying on a theme to do so.
Hellion is overpriced in what it does, so people rarely took her. I still don't own one yet but two will likely be my next purchase.
Right now, I feel I have to play OoA to be competitive in a tournament setting (remember, I'm not that good of a player). I don't like this. I would much rather themes provide benefits that were not free points (but are not total rubbish like Children of the Dragon).
PP has stated themes are the way they want to move forward with playstyles in the future. Joining in with my tin foil hat - because it helps drive sales - and honestly, I'm okay with that... UP TO THE POINT where it invalidates large previous investments (says a small prayer in remembrance of an all-consuming alien army that was sold off).
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 1, 2017 15:27:58 GMT
Yes an Armour Piercing Blessed pow 17 charge attack is disgusting, however it is only mat 6, Fyanna has no way to fix mat, unless she wants to take the Black Frost Shard and go for the Ice Cages. then she is not maxing on free points. Not ranting. But want to give some details. The maximum hotswap + slipstream potential is a 11 fury investment for spells alone - 2x2 wraithbane (Naga/Fyanna), 2x2 Slipsteam (Seraph/Fyanna), 1 upkept Fury, 2 to recast fury. The Angel will want to boost the attack to make sure it hits. It's also a single AP attack. So then they max out with 3 buys. That totals to 12 fury on the field and that's IF the Naga and Seraph (or anything else) didn't spend on their attacks. Maxing those two would mean 14. Each Neraph would add 3. Two forsaken, three shepherds, and Fyanna can handle a maximum of 17 fury. So yes if you ran 5 beasts all maxed out, kept them all in 12" ctrl, and 8" cmd of Forsaken/shepherds. You can in fact do that. It requires a ton of resources and set up... and the opponent has to put two jacks within 14" no Los blocking. And as was mentioned it still doesn't guarantee dead jacks. Edit: math is wrong. Fyanna doesn't generate fury...
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 1, 2017 15:48:27 GMT
I have played oracles, he went first, he ran everything... I ran my stuff ( not even full run distance) to try to stay out of threats. With slip stream he charged 2 of my heavies ( almost killing them). Looking back now I think he cheated because he then popped feat and tossed it over to me. I checked to see and one of his angels was out of the feat by at least 2". I think he charged the angel out of control range when he charged my jack with it. It's just a lot to deal with considering every single one of his heavies basically gets an extra attack because of the free charge and he can max them all out since he has tons of fury management... I mean, if you're not even asking what the maximum threat ranges of his models are and just blindly walking into charge range then yes, lots of lists are basically unbeatable. That's not an issue with theme lists or balance though. That's a correctable mistake.
I was well aware of his threat ranges. I was also aware that if I only advanced 8" out of my deployment zone on turn 1 that I wouldn't have a chance of contesting scenario at all. I can't go back now and check to see if he cheated by charging out of his control area... but I don't see how else I could have managed the approach. The only LOS blocking terrain on the table was a house off to the side.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 1, 2017 16:46:44 GMT
I mean, if you're not even asking what the maximum threat ranges of his models are and just blindly walking into charge range then yes, lots of lists are basically unbeatable. That's not an issue with theme lists or balance though. That's a correctable mistake.
I was well aware of his threat ranges. I was also aware that if I only advanced 8" out of my deployment zone on turn 1 that I wouldn't have a chance of contesting scenario at all. I can't go back now and check to see if he cheated by charging out of his control area... but I don't see how else I could have managed the approach. The only LOS blocking terrain on the table was a house off to the side. It's almost like the entire scenario packet is about to change to prevent this very thing from happening. From what it sounds like Oracles wasn't the problem here, it was the terrain set up and the way the 2016 scenario packet worked.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 2, 2017 1:30:00 GMT
The best themes are ones that rarely see competitive play but help fluff bunnies play something cool and thematic without getting stomped. So you won't see them and PPs angle doesn't go. Nobody even touched with a 10 Foot pole the "Fluffy" ones in MKII, and I'm not really seeing many people touch Children of Dragon Either. If anything more things should be like Oracles. I'm saying PP trying to push their angle on what the game should be like with theme forces is actually detrimental to the game. In Mk II we had Machinations of Shadow and until right at the very end when Croak Raiders came out there was no good reason to play Vayl 2 outside of that theme, which led to Vayl 2 lists looking quite similar with only a few flex picks in an otherwise standardised list. It was also a direct power buff to an already very strong Warlock. Now we have Oracles of Annihilation which is basically the Mk III version of Machinations of Shadow except instead of being for one Warlock half the faction has little reason not to play in the theme. Fyanna 2 actually used to have a lot of interesting variety in what people were playing with her, some ran a mix of infantry and beasts, others beast heavy, You saw Swordsmen, Typhon, Proteus, Strider Scouts, Blightblades, Wrong Eye and Snapjaw, both Gargantuans. Some ran her in Ravens of War, others didn't. With Oracles her lists have over 100 points of exactly the same models with the only flex being in whether you want to move away from the standard Bloodseer and second Sorceress to a Raek or Blight Wasps and a Succubus.
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