crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 24, 2017 23:08:44 GMT
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. As in the assault chaps need to walk to be in range with the flamethrowers Or charge.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 24, 2017 23:17:28 GMT
No, if you Assault and get into melee, the gas will hit on a 7 (6 with Strak), which is more than half of the time. Mind Splaining How? Im confused by all dem rules.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 24, 2017 23:24:54 GMT
No, if you Assault and get into melee, the gas will hit on a 7 (6 with Strak), which is more than half of the time. Mind Splaining How? Im confused by all dem rules. Trenchers are base DEF 13. AKs are RAT 6 normally, RAT 7 with Strakhov1. Dig In goes away when a model is engaged. Ergo, if you charge and engage your target, they don't get any bonuses from Dig In, and you only need a 6 or 7 to hit. Flamethrowers don't have Assault but they do have gunfigther, so after resolving your assault shots, if they made it to a trencher, they can make a spray.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 24, 2017 23:51:34 GMT
Trenchers are base DEF 13. AKs are RAT 6 normally, RAT 7 with Strakhov1. Dig In goes away when a model is engaged. Ergo, if you charge and engage your target, they don't get any bonuses from Dig In, and you only need a 6 or 7 to hit. Flamethrowers don't have Assault but they do have gunfigther, so after resolving your assault shots, if they are engaging a trencher, they can make a spray. Good point but the Gas Grenades run into the simple problem: Why not just try to kill twice? Not like they have steady. Here is the flowchart: Use Gas: 2 Hits: You create gas, remove toughness and kill target Gas Hits but Kill Doesn't: You remove tough but target is standing up and not dead Gas misses But Kill hits: No gas, but target gets to make a tough roll, to possibly end up prone. 2 Kill Attempts: 2 Hits: You hit once, even if target passes tough and is knocked down you kill him when knocked down. In fact makes getting the 2nd hit off easier 1st Hit Hits: The 2nd Miss is impossible since target is knocked down 2nd Hit Hits: Target gets tough roll, may be possibly knocked down. As sexy as the "Anti Tough" canisters are, they are Kinda impractical unless the target also has steady.
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Post by skathrex on May 25, 2017 1:49:23 GMT
Jup Rowdy is right. Firing the Gas isn't really effective UNLESS you can hit mutlible with the gas!
But normaly the Gas is really situational against things like cats and stuff
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 25, 2017 2:32:49 GMT
Jup Rowdy is right. Firing the Gas isn't really effective UNLESS you can hit mutlible with the gas! But normaly the Gas is really situational against things like cats and stuff I get it, but like...They where Designed as the Anti-Trencher Unit in allot of ways. Not saying they should be pigeonholed into that role, but it feels weird to use them as an "Anti beast" weapon when they don't communicate that at all. More than a Buff or a Nerf, or a UA they need another redesign on their gas grenades. An Accuracy buff is self-defeating, and an Enemy Defense Debuff is also lackluster. I'm wondering what to give them on Grenades that's not redundant. I guess they will REMAIN redundant as long as you have to HIT a target and they remain only at AOE 3. Maybe remove the cloud effect? Like the gas grenade doesn't create a visible gas but just apply a flat effect?
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 25, 2017 3:00:41 GMT
Trenchers are base DEF 13. AKs are RAT 6 normally, RAT 7 with Strakhov1. Dig In goes away when a model is engaged. Ergo, if you charge and engage your target, they don't get any bonuses from Dig In, and you only need a 6 or 7 to hit. Flamethrowers don't have Assault but they do have gunfigther, so after resolving your assault shots, if they are engaging a trencher, they can make a spray. Good point but the Gas Grenades run into the simple problem: Why not just try to kill twice? Not like they have steady. Here is the flowchart: Use Gas: 2 Hits: You create gas, remove toughness and kill target Gas Hits but Kill Doesn't: You remove tough but target is standing up and not dead Gas misses But Kill hits: No gas, but target gets to make a tough roll, to possibly end up prone. 2 Kill Attempts: 2 Hits: You hit once, even if target passes tough and is knocked down you kill him when knocked down. In fact makes getting the 2nd hit off easier 1st Hit Hits: The 2nd Miss is impossible since target is knocked down 2nd Hit Hits: Target gets tough roll, may be possibly knocked down. As sexy as the "Anti Tough" canisters are, they are Kinda impractical unless the target also has steady. It depends on the situation, including how tightly clumped the unit is, how much DEF, ARM, and boxes, if it has steady, if it has a healing ability like warbeasts, etc, but against a low ARM target without boxes that isn't clumped tightly, yeah, the gun is usually better than the gas. Even then, one thing to be concerned about is your order of resolving your assault shots for the whole unit before your regular charge attacks. So, if you lined up a spray nicely and sent both a flamethrower and a regular AK charging in at the same target, you may not want to kill the target with the assault shot because it could mess with your spray angle. Hence you would be inclined to use the gas grenade so you don't kill the target before you can target it with the spray.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 25, 2017 3:08:27 GMT
It depends on the situation, including how tightly clumped the unit is, how much DEF, ARM, and boxes, if it has steady, if it has a healing ability like warbeasts, etc, but against a low ARM target without boxes that isn't clumped tightly, yeah, the gun is usually better than the gas. It's just such a Niche ability that we pay premium for, and its intended targets, IE Trenchers don't really care for it at all. That's more how skornergistic the lack of a Melee weapon on the Flamethrower is as opposed to making the grenades more useful.
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 25, 2017 4:00:33 GMT
Maybe Strakov2 realized AK's weren't effective in the new war? 😂 Makes sense, he is older and wiser now...
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 25, 2017 4:13:28 GMT
Flamethrowers don't have Assault but they do have gunfigther, so after resolving your assault shots, if they made it to a trencher, they can make a spray. True, the main shortcoming is that you can't use Assault to simple get an extra 3" of threat range over your "walk-and-shoot" range. I don't know how important that actually is in this situation.
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Post by Cryptix on May 25, 2017 4:16:42 GMT
You know, in the RPG, gas grenades give a -2 DEF and to hit penalty to models in the AOE. If I wanted to fix Trenchers I'd give them that, a UA that has granted: Hunter, mini-feat that gives them reverse-assault and lets them fire at model's charging them, and a Kovnik that gave Tactican.
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 25, 2017 7:42:27 GMT
You know, in the RPG, gas grenades give a -2 DEF and to hit penalty to models in the AOE. If I wanted to fix Trenchers I'd give them that, a UA that has granted: Hunter, mini-feat that gives them reverse-assault and lets them fire at model's charging them, and a Kovnik that gave Tactican. I didn't know Trenchers needed to be fixed... Seriously though, those are a LOT of additional rules you're asking for, on a unit that already has a fair number of rules - although I guess Trenchers already have a bucketload of rules as well. It sounds like by reverse-assault you mean overwatch (the ability from 40K and other games, not the videogame that has been stealing all my free time for the past year...)? Might be a bit much to ask for such a... well, potentially core rule that doesn't exist in this game, especially for a unit that isn't exactly a dedicated shooting unit. They already ignore clouds and Flamethrowers do a lot of what Hunter does, giving the regular grunts Hunter on top might be a bit much since at that point you're ignoring so much of the game's defensive tech? Why Tactician? I'm not sure that's something that holds much value to them? Unless it's for walking into damage-dealing AOE effects while in shield wall? Here's a random suggestion: a rule that gives them additional range on their guns while in shield wall. This could represent using the shields to steady their guns, and allows them to contribute more while staying in shield wall (and staying out of enemy melee range) thus helping them stay alive, but wouldn't stack with Assault so their range would not be insane. Alternately a simple speed buff while in shield wall (like the MkII Kovnik used to hand out), for the similar effect of helping them to contribute a little better while staying in shield wall. Or just give them more useful grenade options, like you were saying with the -2 DEF thing.
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Post by Netherby on May 25, 2017 8:03:58 GMT
Back in the halcyon days of Mk2 they had -2Def/-2Mat to living models on the grenade. No one thought they were any good then either...
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 25, 2017 8:47:54 GMT
Back in the halcyon days of Mk2 they had -2Def/-2Mat to living models on the grenade. No one thought they were any good then either... They were only RAT 5 back then, and didn't have Assault. Still there were uses for those grenades (like shooting each other so non-Reach models were at -2 to hit them in melee). Now with RAT 6/7 plus Assault to increase their shooting/grenade range, a less situational debuff than disabling healing on their grenades would be a bit more powerful than it was in MkII.
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Post by borderprince on May 25, 2017 11:42:03 GMT
How about something simpler? Just give them back the ability to hit things with their very spikey shields. Trencher can tough all they want, but if each Kommando has 2 attacks, they can kill a downed Trencher with the second attack.
Makes them really a light infantry killing unit, but that is their fluff.
My only other alternative would be give a UA that gives a wider range of grenades (fluff them as being developed from captured Golden Crucible tech from Llael). The launcher is single shot, so no reason they can't change the grenade type if someone carries the supplies.
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