Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 19, 2017 13:31:10 GMT
While I like the idea of a well implemented Theme Force, there have been some issues with the ones we got in mk3 (like killing variety, making non-TF armies obsolete, power level issues etc)
Do you think tournaments that disallow the use of Theme Forces can/should emerge as an alternative to regular ones ?
I, for one, would like that idea. First, more variety and less stagnation is always good in wargaming IMO and I loved multiple, varied formats and challenges in other wargames I used to play, something you don't see in WM&H.
Second, I'd like to once again build varied armies without thinking "this cool unit/ mercenary/ character really costs me 15pts+additional benefits more because if I ditch it I can play in theme" which happens to me more and more often when I try to create new lists. It feels like I'm shoehorned into the formulaic design of a Theme Force as the opportunity cost of adding a cool model for the sake of variety is so much larger than in a normal list.
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Post by macdaddy on May 19, 2017 13:38:08 GMT
While I like the idea of a well implemented Theme Force, there have been some issues with the ones we got in mk3 (like killing variety, making non-TF armies obsolete, power level issues etc) Do you think tournaments that disallow the use of Theme Forces can/should emerge as an alternative to regular ones ? I, for one, would like that idea. First, more variety and less stagnation is always good in wargaming IMO and I loved multiple, varied formats and challenges in other wargames I used to play, something you don't see in WM&H. Second, I'd like to once again build varied armies without thinking "this cool unit/ mercenary/ character really costs me 15pts+additional benefits more because if I ditch it I can play in theme" which happens to me more and more often when I try to create new lists. It feels like I'm shoehorned into the formulaic design of a Theme Force as the opportunity cost of adding a cool model for the sake of variety is so much larger than in a normal list. I could see it becoming one of those once in a while tourneys. Kind of lack the crazy ones where you use a caster from another faction to lead your army but more balanced and less silly OP combos. I personally like the theme forces as I don't feel horrible about playing with wolds anymore I think the themes open up list diversity (especially once more come out) I'm sure some places will do it!
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Post by jonnyboy on May 19, 2017 13:40:26 GMT
I like the idea, all for it. I too feel like themes are almost too good to not use, and you get jammed into making cookie cutter lists for pure viability. I would almost like themes better if they did not provide free models, and instead provided special tactics or ways to use the theme models in conjunction with each other.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 19, 2017 14:00:28 GMT
Do you think PP will ever adress this by making one tournament format theme free? I think if champions or masters or IG was theme free it would open up more lists for competitive play.
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Post by tiberius on May 19, 2017 14:05:03 GMT
In my opinion, the only reason that theme forces are stifling variety is because we don't have them all yet. Once all the options are there, I think we will see a lot more variety played.
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Post by jisidro on May 19, 2017 14:08:16 GMT
I don't think it'll catch on. Especially when themes are being used as another layer of balance and purpusely made for certain themes within factions to be viable.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 19, 2017 14:42:12 GMT
As a different, for-fun format like Foodmachine or Who's the Boss, sure why not? As an official format, I doubt it.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 19, 2017 15:43:38 GMT
I don't see PP going through all this effort to create and encourage themes, only to then make them limited.
I could see some events taking this route, but that's no different from foodmachine or who's the boss.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 19, 2017 15:54:38 GMT
Yeah, obviously I meant a fan/event organizer initiative like this, to spice things up. I don't see PP doing this but , to be honest, official PP events aren't available to most WM&H players all over the world anyway, most of them (and their rulesets) are in the hands of players themselves.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 19, 2017 16:20:49 GMT
I hope not because I actually have less playable models out of theme than in theme sitting on a shelf.
Now if we speak balance then powerlevel disparity argument can go both ways. If you think some theme/faction combination are much better than the other, then how just picking faction will be more balanced?
Yes, theme creep is a thing, when not all factions get equal amount of theme coverage. So is CID creep a thing, when not all factions go through CID with major buffs like Cryx and Skorne did (Menoth CID, anyone?). So is model release creep a thing, when not everyone has new releases at same time. Should tournament organisers also ban factions or models on this basis?
I think it's easier for tournament organisers not to get involved into all those balance issues than start limiting things and create parallel world of balance with the responsibility it brings. PP positioned the game as competitive wargame, so let them do their job, balance is their responsibility, no need to do it for them, CID already was a big concession from community to PP's lack of ability.
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Post by pangurban on May 19, 2017 16:47:30 GMT
Honestly, I'd rather not. I agree that for some factions their themes make not playing in theme a significant competitive disadvantage, but - whether we like it or not - overal the game seems more balanced with themes than without. And that'll only become more so. For events that are otherwise just Steamrollers, that balance should take precedence. Things like Foodmachine or Who's the Boss are not balanced. They don't try to be, in fact balance going out the window is the point (especially with Foodmachine, since the more you "cheat" the more cans of food get raised), so for them it doesn't matter. For events where a fair competition is the goal, it does.
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Post by greytemplar on May 19, 2017 17:40:55 GMT
I doubt it. But it is undeniable that themes are not balanced as they currently are. Some factions have stupidly broken themes, others have pretty crappy themes. Even once more come out, its clear that theme power level is going to be a crap shoot. So we'll have the same situation we had in mk2. Where sometimes you play in theme, sometimes you don't. Some themes are broken, others are underpowered.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on May 19, 2017 18:44:43 GMT
One thing to remember when it comes to balance is that after June all themes are going to go through CID. This should go a long way towards evening out the power curve.
I highly doubt that you're going to see many "No-Theme" events. Maybe in isolated pockets, but I doubt most EOs are going to want to make that radical a change to the SR document.
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Post by jest on May 19, 2017 18:48:07 GMT
In my opinion, the only reason that theme forces are stifling variety is because we don't have them all yet. Once all the options are there, I think we will see a lot more variety played. I am already seeing some of this in Cryx "Ghost Fleet Deneghra 1 is strong, but for my second list do I play Banes, Thralls or out of theme?" Now if they could get all three themes in line with each other so that Ghost Fleet wasn't a lock for so many people we'd be back to a lot of variety
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Post by macdaddy on May 19, 2017 18:53:25 GMT
One thing to remember when it comes to balance is that after June all themes are going to go through CID. This should go a long way towards evening out the power curve. I highly doubt that you're going to see many "No-Theme" events. Maybe in isolated pockets, but I doubt most EOs are going to want to make that radical a change to the SR document. Wait I completely missed this. They are?
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