Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on May 22, 2017 18:37:18 GMT
Like it or not theme forces are likely going to represent the vast majority of competitive lists in the future. Events are typically geared towards competitive players and telling people "Hey you know those super sweet competitive theme lists you've been collecting, practicing, & painting the past year. You can't play them." ... . I don't see "no theme events" taking off or being popular at all. Well, I guess it depends on players in question. For example in my WFB competitive days (6th-7th ed) there was an immense range of different formats played. 1000pts, 1250pts, 1500pts, 1750pts, 1999pts, 2000pts, 2500pts, match-rematch with switching armies, doubles, no characters, no magic, special effects or scenarios - all those were played at competitive events. The variety apparently didn't make our Polish competitive players weak, as Polish WFB teams at the ETC (a Warhammer event which later spawned WM&H WTC) kept taking the podium year after year (and still do). The need to be flexible, to adjust to different conditions and facing varied challenges actually made them better players. Not sure playing the same safe choice/comfort zone list all over again would necessarily have the same effect. After all is it really a mark of a great player if he can win only with one specific list in one specific set of circumstances ?
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 22, 2017 20:53:31 GMT
Like it or not theme forces are likely going to represent the vast majority of competitive lists in the future. Events are typically geared towards competitive players and telling people "Hey you know those super sweet competitive theme lists you've been collecting, practicing, & painting the past year. You can't play them." ... . I don't see "no theme events" taking off or being popular at all. Well, I guess it depends on players in question. For example in my WFB competitive days (6th-7th ed) there was an immense range of different formats played. 1000pts, 1250pts, 1500pts, 1750pts, 1999pts, 2000pts, 2500pts, match-rematch with switching armies, doubles, no characters, no magic, special effects or scenarios - all those were played at competitive events. The variety apparently didn't make our Polish competitive players weak, as Polish WFB teams at the ETC (a Warhammer event which later spawned WM&H WTC) kept taking the podium year after year (and still do). The need to be flexible, to adjust to different conditions and facing varied challenges actually made them better players. Not sure playing the same safe choice/comfort zone list all over again would necessarily have the same effect. After all is it really a mark of a great player if he can win only with one specific list in one specific set of circumstances ? Did Warhammer Fantasy ever have a document like the Steamroller packet? (I honestly don't know). The seeming purpose and result of the a steamroller document is to homogenise Warmachine play worldwide, I have not seen much enthusiasm for deviation from it. I am a prime culprit in only wanting to play the standard 75 point steamroller game, anything else is a waste of time for me. It seems like Warmachine is fairly unique in the respect of not straying from the mandated rules, in my experience at least.
|
|
Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Lanz on May 22, 2017 21:19:18 GMT
Well, I guess it depends on players in question. For example in my WFB competitive days (6th-7th ed) there was an immense range of different formats played. 1000pts, 1250pts, 1500pts, 1750pts, 1999pts, 2000pts, 2500pts, match-rematch with switching armies, doubles, no characters, no magic, special effects or scenarios - all those were played at competitive events. The variety apparently didn't make our Polish competitive players weak, as Polish WFB teams at the ETC (a Warhammer event which later spawned WM&H WTC) kept taking the podium year after year (and still do). The need to be flexible, to adjust to different conditions and facing varied challenges actually made them better players. Not sure playing the same safe choice/comfort zone list all over again would necessarily have the same effect. After all is it really a mark of a great player if he can win only with one specific list in one specific set of circumstances ? Did Warhammer Fantasy ever have a document like the Steamroller packet? (I honestly don't know). The seeming purpose and result of the a steamroller document is to homogenise Warmachine play worldwide, I have not seen much enthusiasm for deviation from it. I am a prime culprit in only wanting to play the standard 75 point steamroller game, anything else is a waste of time for me. It seems like Warmachine is fairly unique in the respect of not straying from the mandated rules, in my experience at least. It's extremely common. I think most players want to know that they're all being measured by the same stick when they're playing steamroller.
|
|
|
Post by The 1336 on May 22, 2017 21:35:10 GMT
Most of the tourney I played was people using themes, so I can't remember all of them and Ill say that my list wasn't the best for the environment (needs more punch). I know I personally played against the iron fang theme and ended up thinking "jeez, how does he get all this into his list?" Then finding out that the answer is that alot of it was free and he's just getting more stuff for his points. As for more variety from the non theme list, I'm thinking it's probably alot easier to see the power in free stuff than assembling some crazy combo out of a mixed bag.
In the end I'm not really complaining too hard. The theme force environment seems to be a bit of a work in progress, so we'll see how that pans out. My friends and I have agreed that were willing to play without themes if we feel its an actual balance issue and someone wants to play something for funsies that doesn't fit with that (much like asking someone not not play a hard counter to your list in a friendly game). I just wanted to share my current experience with people.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on May 22, 2017 21:44:17 GMT
Well, I guess it depends on players in question. For example in my WFB competitive days (6th-7th ed) there was an immense range of different formats played. 1000pts, 1250pts, 1500pts, 1750pts, 1999pts, 2000pts, 2500pts, match-rematch with switching armies, doubles, no characters, no magic, special effects or scenarios - all those were played at competitive events. The variety apparently didn't make our Polish competitive players weak, as Polish WFB teams at the ETC (a Warhammer event which later spawned WM&H WTC) kept taking the podium year after year (and still do). The need to be flexible, to adjust to different conditions and facing varied challenges actually made them better players. Not sure playing the same safe choice/comfort zone list all over again would necessarily have the same effect. After all is it really a mark of a great player if he can win only with one specific list in one specific set of circumstances ? Did Warhammer Fantasy ever have a document like the Steamroller packet? (I honestly don't know). The seeming purpose and result of the a steamroller document is to homogenise Warmachine play worldwide, I have not seen much enthusiasm for deviation from it. I am a prime culprit in only wanting to play the standard 75 point steamroller game, anything else is a waste of time for me. It seems like Warmachine is fairly unique in the respect of not straying from the mandated rules, in my experience at least. There wasn't ever an official packet for WHF. But the most common format was "No named characters, 2500 points, and 2.5 hour rounds". That was sort of the base standard for fair competitive play, since all of the hideously OP characters were all named, so an easy fix was to just say no named characters. Then you had the ETC comp rules which a lot of tournaments used as well, though they were not that great. They showed a lot of the bias of the few individuals who got to build the rules. All of the OP stuff did get caught, but so did a lot of non-OP stuff that someone just had a bad experience with.
|
|
|
Post by pangurban on May 22, 2017 22:08:50 GMT
Most of the tourney I played was people using themes, so I can't remember all of them and Ill say that my list wasn't the best for the environment (needs more punch). I know I personally played against the iron fang theme and ended up thinking "jeez, how does he get all this into his list?" Then finding out that the answer is that alot of it was free and he's just getting more stuff for his points. As for more variety from the non theme list, I'm thinking it's probably alot easier to see the power in free stuff than assembling some crazy combo out of a mixed bag. In the end I'm not really complaining too hard. The theme force environment seems to be a bit of a work in progress, so we'll see how that pans out. My friends and I have agreed that were willing to play without themes if we feel its an actual balance issue and someone wants to play something for funsies that doesn't fit with that (much like asking someone not not play a hard counter to your list in a friendly game). I just wanted to share my current experience with people. He presumably had 12 points if free models: one solo and two CAs or vice versa. In return he's playing an army consisting largely of melee infantry/cav though. I don't know if that's a particular weakness vs your army (since I don't know what you were playing), but it is definitely something the right type of army can exploit.
|
|
Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
|
Post by Ryilan on May 23, 2017 5:06:59 GMT
This is another friendly reminder for people to stay on topic. The question is 'Are "no Theme Forces allowed"events going to become a thing?'. Please stick to answering this question. WHFB event rules and personal experiences in encountering theme's do not answer that question.
Ryilan
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on May 23, 2017 5:59:31 GMT
The argument that with time more Theme Forces can bring more variety and balance is one I understand. But if it is not the case yet than maybe theme force-less tournaments should be a thing right now, when disparity is known and acknowledged ?
|
|
|
Post by pangurban on May 23, 2017 9:32:28 GMT
The argument that with time more Theme Forces can bring more variety and balance is one I understand. But if it is not the case yet than maybe theme force-less tournaments should be a thing right now, when disparity is known and acknowledged ? Several factions feel (not entirely without cause) that they need their themes to be on even footing with the rest. Others feel their themes aren't up to snuff (yet), so they're at a (possibly minor) disadvantage comparably. So, it's not perfect but there is an effect from themes already. It's just not possible to please everyone right now, whether you exclude themes or include them.
|
|
|
Post by pangurban on May 23, 2017 9:35:49 GMT
This is another friendly reminder for people to stay on topic. The question is 'Are "no Theme Forces allowed"events going to become a thing?'. Please stick to answering this question. WHFB event rules and personal experiences in encountering theme's do not answer that question.
Ryilan Not to antagonize our esteemed moderators, but personal experiences in encountering themes are precisely what will make players want to have access to them at events or not, which is the biggest factor by far regarding whether events that ban them can be a thing. Just saying. The posts may make these experiences out to be a bit too tangential, but they're still relevant.
|
|
Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
|
Post by Ryilan on May 23, 2017 10:11:25 GMT
This is another friendly reminder for people to stay on topic. The question is 'Are "no Theme Forces allowed"events going to become a thing?'. Please stick to answering this question. WHFB event rules and personal experiences in encountering theme's do not answer that question.
Ryilan Not to antagonize our esteemed moderators, but personal experiences in encountering themes are precisely what will make players want to have access to them at events or not, which is the biggest factor by far regarding whether events that ban them can be a thing. Just saying. The posts may make these experiences out to be a bit too tangential, but they're still relevant. While i understand your point, the fact is that such posts have a tendency of shifting the discussion away from the original discussion. I'm not saying don't use personal experiences in the discussion, just ensure that the focus will be on the topic at hand. This is after all not a thread made to discuss and debate everyone's personal experiences with theme's, so please keep that in mind.
Ryilan
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 23, 2017 11:45:41 GMT
If non-theme events were to be a thing, then you can discount Grymkin from ever appearing. The entire Grymkin faction is entirely based around Dark Menagerie and Bump in the Night, taking those themes away handicaps them massively.
|
|
|
Post by cainuslupus on May 23, 2017 21:18:30 GMT
If non-theme events were to be a thing, then you can discount Grymkin from ever appearing. The entire Grymkin faction is entirely based around Dark Menagerie and Bump in the Night, taking those themes away handicaps them massively. How about mercs or Cephalyx in particular? I think as the time go on more interesting/fun themes will be created. Like one including selected mercenary/minion models (there were such themes in Mk2). I don't believe non-theme events will stick as anything else than gimmick. I sometimes like to play Journeyman or Whose the boss to change the pace or some fun fluffy scenarios, sometimes being operative word.
|
|
Luebbi
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
|
Post by Luebbi on May 26, 2017 8:16:18 GMT
I might try an event where theme forces are allowed, but any theme benefits that add free stuff don't count. I am aware that there are still theme forces that will be played, like jaws of the wolf - which says a lot about their power level. Denying AD is huge enough to be a problem for a lot of factions, no need to sprinkle 16 or so free points on top. Anyway, this allows Cephalyx and the like, and people can still play themes if they so desire, but the points level will be the same across the board.
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on May 26, 2017 12:50:57 GMT
While we're talking about theme forces I think PP should definitely bring vanilla up on the power level scale so themes won't be such obvious competitive choices. Increase vanilla points to 80, or give 1 free solo or something like that.
|
|