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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 26, 2017 12:57:00 GMT
While we're talking about theme forces I think PP should definitely bring vanilla up on the power level scale so themes won't be such obvious competitive choices. Increase vanilla points to 80, or give 1 free solo or something like that. Vanilla is supposed to be incentivized by the flexability of the list. I really don't see non-theme tournaments going anywhere. Running one is just an easy way to divide up your meta, and make people upset.
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Post by streetpizza on May 26, 2017 13:43:26 GMT
Running ONE shouldn't make your community upset ... running them exclusively probably would.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 26, 2017 13:49:32 GMT
While we're talking about theme forces I think PP should definitely bring vanilla up on the power level scale so themes won't be such obvious competitive choices. Increase vanilla points to 80, or give 1 free solo or something like that. I honestly can't see them doing that, the thing that balances out vanilla lists is that you can still take your favourite wombo combo and use all the merc options, however you are just gonna have to play about 12 points down, Theme lists give free points for the express purpose of balancing the game
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Post by pangurban on May 26, 2017 13:55:52 GMT
While we're talking about theme forces I think PP should definitely bring vanilla up on the power level scale so themes won't be such obvious competitive choices. Increase vanilla points to 80, or give 1 free solo or something like that. Quite a few themes aren't such obvious competitive choices. I think it's getting silly if we start to muck about with everything else rather than the themes that are actually problematic. Fix what's broken, don't break the rest.
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Post by Gorbad Ironclaw on May 26, 2017 15:30:54 GMT
While we're talking about theme forces I think PP should definitely bring vanilla up on the power level scale so themes won't be such obvious competitive choices. Increase vanilla points to 80, or give 1 free solo or something like that. Quite a few themes aren't such obvious competitive choices. I think it's getting silly if we start to muck about with everything else rather than the themes that are actually problematic. Fix what's broken, don't break the rest. But that's making the assumption that the powerful themes are 'problems'. I'm not sure PP see things the same way and I fully expect that as we go forward it will become more and more theme lists and vanilla lists basically becomes an noncompetitive choice. With the amount of extra stuff (rules, points) you can get out of themes I just can't see vanilla lists being a mainstream option once we get another round or two of theme lists. They aren't restrivtive/specialised enough and things like mercs already took a big hit in MK3 with the change to friendly faction for lots of effects.
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Post by pangurban on May 26, 2017 16:42:47 GMT
Quite a few themes aren't such obvious competitive choices. I think it's getting silly if we start to muck about with everything else rather than the themes that are actually problematic. Fix what's broken, don't break the rest. But that's making the assumption that the powerful themes are 'problems'. I'm not sure PP see things the same way and I fully expect that as we go forward it will become more and more theme lists and vanilla lists basically becomes an noncompetitive choice. With the amount of extra stuff (rules, points) you can get out of themes I just can't see vanilla lists being a mainstream option once we get another round or two of theme lists. They aren't restrivtive/specialised enough and things like mercs already took a big hit in MK3 with the change to friendly faction for lots of effects. PP has told us they expect more than half of competitive lists will be theme forces, going forward. Not all though, so the intent is that "vanilla" can compete. CID presumably is supposed to help out balancing stuff with as yet unreleased theme forces (and it's possible the early ones will get revisited, or that models that make them very powerful will). Moreover, if the powerful themes are not problems then over half of the existing theme forces are: those are roughly comparable with vanilla (or even less strong), not with the top themes. That'd mean the entire game other than what, a dozen, maybe a dozen and a half themes is underpowered.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 26, 2017 22:33:01 GMT
In all honesty, what Themes are actually problems right now? More specifically: Are there any Questions that Theme Lists are Asking that wouldn't be asked by a Vanilla Army? For example: people are more worried about the Incorporeal aspect of Ghost Fleet than they are about the recursion, but Cryx can safely play with Incorp models out of Theme quite safely. I honestly think people are fixating on the "X mount of free points" on the side of the equation without considering that a lot of those points are not quality points and are righteously indignant on principal alone (or they're suffering a serious case of FoMO ). There are a lot of models that they would have to PAY me to use, but that's in essence what Themes are doing.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on May 27, 2017 1:32:45 GMT
Oracles of Annihilation asks if you can deal with 100 points of supported beasts, something Legion is otherwise unable to accomplish. Ghost Fleet asks if you can out attrition an extra 3 + 3/turn Warrior models. Winter Guard Kommand asks if you can deal with Khador without the balancing weaknesses of slow jacks and casters you can kill at range. Ravens of War and Jaws of the Wolf ask if you can handle the list without any AD. Destruction Iniative asks if you can handle excessive amounts of throwaway Shield Guards on top of a normal Convergence list. Heavy Metal asks how you deal with counter-deployed Hunter shots coming into the first few inches of your deployment zone.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 27, 2017 8:12:35 GMT
In all honesty, what Themes are actually problems right now? How much variety do you see within them ? For example how many visibly different variants of Storm Division have you seen (discounting the caster)? What kind of different decisions people make when choosing their free models for theme forces, aren't they always the same set ?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 27, 2017 9:55:59 GMT
In all honesty, what Themes are actually problems right now? How much variety do you see within them ? For example how many visibly different variants of Storm Division have you seen (discounting the caster)? What kind of different decisions people make when choosing their free models for theme forces, aren't they always the same set ? To be honest I had a maddox list that I had tried and liked before theme.when it came out fit perfect and i got free points. Its kinda the models you already wanna take...
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Post by pangurban on May 27, 2017 10:07:57 GMT
In all honesty, what Themes are actually problems right now? How much variety do you see within them ? For example how many visibly different variants of Storm Division have you seen (discounting the caster)? What kind of different decisions people make when choosing their free models for theme forces, aren't they always the same set ? Storm Division is a great example for your argument though: the free models are models you'd want at full price anyway and it allows the use of the best models in the faction to get that free stuff without doing enough for the other models that are allowed to make players really want to use them. This does not apply to all themes and, to be frank, illustrates what themes are bad at: fixing single models (in this case Stormblades) rather than affecting everything in the theme (in this case models doing electrical stuff in Cygnar). To get variety within lists, nothing can substitute for models being balanced in the first place. Themes can nudge things in the right direction, but it's very hard to use them to properly fix any one model. What they can do is bring whole groups of models - the ones defining the theme - up for consideration: nobody plays Banes without a suitable theme, but with one they'll show up. Which Banes specifically, that'll depend on individual model balance. If that's good enough, we'll see all of them. If not, we'll see one of them. Note: either way, that's still better than not seeing Banes at all. In other words, let's keep things in perspective. Themes can do some good for the game, but they can't make it perfect.
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Post by flamigant on May 27, 2017 12:57:36 GMT
Oracles of Annihilation asks if you can deal with 100 points of supported beasts, something Legion is otherwise unable to accomplish. Ghost Fleet asks if you can out attrition an extra 3 + 3/turn Warrior models. Winter Guard Kommand asks if you can deal with Khador without the balancing weaknesses of slow jacks and casters you can kill at range. Ravens of War and Jaws of the Wolf ask if you can handle the list without any AD. Destruction Iniative asks if you can handle excessive amounts of throwaway Shield Guards on top of a normal Convergence list. Heavy Metal asks how you deal with counter-deployed Hunter shots coming into the first few inches of your deployment zone. What do the PoM themes ask? Case closed...
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on May 27, 2017 14:02:17 GMT
Oracles of Annihilation asks if you can deal with 100 points of supported beasts, something Legion is otherwise unable to accomplish. Ghost Fleet asks if you can out attrition an extra 3 + 3/turn Warrior models. Winter Guard Kommand asks if you can deal with Khador without the balancing weaknesses of slow jacks and casters you can kill at range. Ravens of War and Jaws of the Wolf ask if you can handle the list without any AD. Destruction Iniative asks if you can handle excessive amounts of throwaway Shield Guards on top of a normal Convergence list. Heavy Metal asks how you deal with counter-deployed Hunter shots coming into the first few inches of your deployment zone. What do the PoM themes ask? Case closed... Amon Creator's Might asks the same question Oracles of Annihilation asks. Can you deal with 100 points of supported warjacks?
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Post by flamigant on May 27, 2017 14:20:56 GMT
What do the PoM themes ask? Case closed... Amon Creator's Might asks the same question Oracles of Annihilation asks. Can you deal with 100 points of supported warjacks? That is only possible if you take a minimum choir in that list and that would be very stupid...
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Post by Gaston on May 27, 2017 16:16:12 GMT
Too many swerves off topic.
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