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Post by elladan52 on May 19, 2017 19:30:50 GMT
I think he means that all future themes will end up in CID because all future books will pass through CID first.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on May 19, 2017 19:32:15 GMT
One thing to remember when it comes to balance is that after June all themes are going to go through CID. This should go a long way towards evening out the power curve. I highly doubt that you're going to see many "No-Theme" events. Maybe in isolated pockets, but I doubt most EOs are going to want to make that radical a change to the SR document. Wait I completely missed this. They are? Everything is once the Command books are done. I believe Pagani said somewhere that the Exemplar force in the newest NQ is the last one that won't be in CID because the NQ went to print a while ago.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on May 20, 2017 3:26:53 GMT
Excellent point in wanting just a cool model will cost too much. Say, a Cankerworm in Cryx is not just 9 pts, its a whole lot more and definitely competitively unplayable.
I start to dislike themes more and more. Would like to hear an argument what good they do for the game? They do good for PP for sure, and balancing themes against other themes is certainly easier than balancing factions.
For example, themes remove the need for certain factions to have buffs if they just have strong themes. Which is simply bad design and a lazy way out.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 20, 2017 3:43:48 GMT
Lawlno. Themes are how the game works now. Whatever balance issues exist will only get addressed through play and CID. Harass Will Pagani to open up theme rebalancing into CID and we'll work on solutions.
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Post by greytemplar on May 20, 2017 3:44:41 GMT
Yes, but the themes that have been released to date are not going to go back into CID(as far as we know). So the themes that currently exist are stuck the way they are.
Which is a shame, since we have a number of "vital" themes that are already out and are all over the board in terms of power. The themes released so far generally cover the core units of their factions. Which is a problem since they're really in need of a rework.
Like the Exemplar and Flameguard themes. They really needed to be in CID. But they're not going to be for the foreseeable future. Yet those are what I would call the necessary core themes of the Protectorate. Flameguard and Exemplars are the main body of the faction, and yet their themes are pretty underwhelming. And even our Jack theme is just boring, as well as underpowered.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on May 20, 2017 3:49:23 GMT
Provided there's something in place that makes Cephalyx still playable I definitely hope to see some events that ban theme forces.
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Post by Cryptix on May 20, 2017 4:11:06 GMT
One thing to remember when it comes to balance is that after June all themes are going to go through CID. This should go a long way towards evening out the power curve. I highly doubt that you're going to see many "No-Theme" events. Maybe in isolated pockets, but I doubt most EOs are going to want to make that radical a change to the SR document. Wait I completely missed this. They are? What really? So everyone's going to get a Bane-esque CID cycle? That's...really good, though it'll take forever.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 20, 2017 4:40:10 GMT
Didn't happen at the peak of EE, Body and Soul, Machinations of Shadow etc etc. Not gonna happen now. Especially when the love has been spread so much this time around, seems only Menoth and Trolls still need their "killer app". From the perspective of a player with Khador colored glasses I really don't feel pigeonholed into any particular build, even though I don't play with my Merc models anymore (but that's been true since Mk3, pre themes). Sucks for the people suffering from SUSS though
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 20, 2017 6:03:04 GMT
Excellent point in wanting just a cool model will cost too much. Say, a Cankerworm in Cryx is not just 9 pts, its a whole lot more and definitely competitively unplayable. I guess it's how I feel from my main faction's perspective. In Protectorate the huge majority of things is viable all by itself and themes don't help those few non-viable models but rather make those that are already good even better (eg. Amon or actually any jack spam) I don't think I can name many models that are now good in themes but haven't already been outside them. But there's a huge list of options that don't make sense now, because just staying in theme provides so much benefit. Like trying to build a jack heavy army with a small amount of infantry/solos. It's better to just not take them, take more jacks instead and have free support. Or all those out of faction mercs. For example a cool addition of Rorsh and Brine to a speed+maneuver Reznik1 army makes no sense and neither does supporting a jack gunline with Gastonne Crosse and Kell. Those options just lose so much. I can see how it is different in other factions, though (Tharn, Revenants etc)!
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 20, 2017 8:26:31 GMT
Wait I completely missed this. They are? What really? So everyone's going to get a Bane-esque CID cycle? That's...really good, though it'll take forever. I would expect it would go like the throne CID, where every faction is testing one theme list at a time for 1-3 weeks, and then it rotates. So potentially all the core themes could get looked over with some meaningful playtest time in about 2 months.
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Post by danith00 on May 20, 2017 15:15:44 GMT
One thing to remember when it comes to balance is that after June all themes are going to go through CID. This should go a long way towards evening out the power curve. I highly doubt that you're going to see many "No-Theme" events. Maybe in isolated pockets, but I doubt most EOs are going to want to make that radical a change to the SR document. I don't think you are correct there. Also, When you don't play Themes you get a more generalist list that can cover more matchups
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Post by danith00 on May 20, 2017 15:16:33 GMT
Yes, but the themes that have been released to date are not going to go back into CID(as far as we know). So the themes that currently exist are stuck the way they are. Which is a shame, since we have a number of "vital" themes that are already out and are all over the board in terms of power. The themes released so far generally cover the core units of their factions. Which is a problem since they're really in need of a rework. Like the Exemplar and Flameguard themes. They really needed to be in CID. But they're not going to be for the foreseeable future. Yet those are what I would call the necessary core themes of the Protectorate. Flameguard and Exemplars are the main body of the faction, and yet their themes are pretty underwhelming. And even our Jack theme is just boring, as well as underpowered. The Exemplar theme is by far not underwhelming. It's extremely powerful.
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Post by greytemplar on May 20, 2017 16:39:56 GMT
I wouldn't use "extremely powerful". The Exemplar theme is just average in terms of it's power level. Couple that with being boring as it could possibly be, and yes it is underwhelming.
If you want "extremely powerful" themes, look at Khador and Cygnar.
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Post by macdaddy on May 20, 2017 19:47:25 GMT
I wouldn't use "extremely powerful". The Exemplar theme is just average in terms of it's power level. Couple that with being boring as it could possibly be, and yes it is underwhelming. If you want "extremely powerful" themes, look at Khador and Cygnar. Well Vinny with Vengers is a pretty Powerful list. If bastions cinerators and errabts were better it would be on par with other themes for sure. Testamemt makes it work too. And Harby can do well with it. Pretty much It's average with everyone but Vinny who makes it great!
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 20, 2017 20:13:24 GMT
I wouldn't use "extremely powerful". The Exemplar theme is just average in terms of it's power level. Couple that with being boring as it could possibly be, and yes it is underwhelming. If you want "extremely powerful" themes, look at Khador and Cygnar. You can't discount the faction in those comparisons. All the themes that allow you to run 'jack/beast heavy, take all the usual support options, and then get free points and special rules on top of that are almost the same in terms of power. Beyond that it's the factions that use them that make one seem so much better than the other.
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