|
Post by ForEver_Blight on May 16, 2017 13:35:28 GMT
I absolutely am not trying to make a complain/whine/gripe thread.
I also know that most people will want to side with their faction when it comes to perceived power. I will go ahead and say that Legion does have some power pieces/casters. But I can't imagine Legion being considered over powered right now. Even if we still had MKII eyeless sight, we still have pitfalls that the meta is happily fielding right now. /disclosure
I've had a consistent run of very bad reactions towards legion. I'm wondering if that's common. Players seem to get rather upset that my models have, what's the word... oh! Rules. (seriously frustrated about all this...I'll try to be civil)
It seems like a majority of the people I play at my local store are easily upset by the fact that I have special rules on my cards that let me do things. You need a 13 to hit my caster behind a wall because base def17 is apparently a thing some models get. "Well there's no way anything will hit him. Boosted murderous hit 2 out of 5 attacks! That's so busted! You won on lucky dice." Like I couldn't possible have skill to play my list and win. Literally the enemy list was designed to assassinate. Nothing on his field mattered because it was all meant to be done by his caster. I didn't take any other model off the board and he gets mad because the Scythean rolling four dice hit twice(3rd and 5th swing). I play against storm lances once. The list I'm drilling has a ungoldy weakness to auto-hits like e-leaps. So I focus them down and one round the unit. That player hasn't played storm lances since with the reasoning "everyone is tech'ing against them" and I know for a fact not a single other player at the store has tech'd against them or anything else. Cryx got extremely mad that a shredder spawned from a vessel can activate, because nothing he had gets their full activation. Thus it was busted or missed in the big change to recursion. I play Saeryn 1 against CoC arm25 Father-bunker, and I don't take a single model off the board in 3 turns (even before enigma foundry brings them back) before the player rages over rules - having to shake both shadowbind and stationary as they DO stack, that blightbringer is a "stupid" spell Saeryn shouldn't have, and that sacrificing movement to stand up doesn't actually trigger watcher (even after arguing against 3 experience players about it).
They seem to feel it's completely unfair that I have anything unique or rules that give me tools or an advantage. I know that's assuming a LOT but it's quite mind boggling and I can't think why people are getting so upset. I don't play meta/tournament list. I've never played Abby2 or Lylyth2/3 there. 75% of the time I'm playing Kryssa for blight's sake. I make sure I communicate everything I can. I don't leave traps that my opponent doesn't know my model's rules in advance. Yet they still find something to complain about. It's gotten to the point where the common joke (that I swear isn't sarcasm) is "Legion OP, must nerf".
So again, anyone else got this kind of stuff going on. Or do you have understanding/compassionate people that can see Legion isn't the best but it's closer to balance then most factions right now.
I'm to the point I've got a khador army and am about to start running that. Since so many people want to convince us hordes players that power-up isn't that good and dirt cheap, efficient, jacks are fine the way they are...
|
|
|
Post by Korianneder on May 16, 2017 13:47:59 GMT
Honestly it sounds like the people you're playing just enjoy complaining. There's a guy like that in my area. Everything everyone else has is overpowered and everything he has is underpowered. He complains about him rolling low and his opponent rolling high, but doesn't acknowledge when the reverse happens.
Legion isn't really more powerful then any of the other factions. All of them are capable of fielding really strong lists. The power discrepancy shows up because some factions have a much wider range of competitive options, but I don't think legion is one of those factions.
|
|
mjolnir
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 1
|
Post by mjolnir on May 16, 2017 13:58:31 GMT
The only things in legion that are perceived as OP/Top tier at the moment are Lylyth3 in general and the big Oracles of Anihilation lists (Fyanna2 mostly). Otherwise, legion is good but far from being OP. Anybody telling you legion is too strong (out of Fyanna2 Oracles) doesn't know much about the game. The whole Beasts are better than jack is an old mentality that doesn't apply in mk3 because of power up and the fact that warjacks are much cheaper than beasts. If you are thinking about switching to Khador because legion is "too strong" well Khador is probably the dumbest faction right now. My recommandation for you would be to identify those people who are "victimizing" themselves no matter what and simply not play with them.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on May 16, 2017 14:22:05 GMT
When the Cygnar player is the one moaning, then the world has clearly just gone crazy.
For what it's worth, I've taken a vacation from my Legion, playing Circle for a bit, and I gotta tell you I feel drunk with power. Circle feels so much stronger than Legion it's pretty intoxicating.
No, I don't think Legion is at all OP. Not even close. Expensive, fragile beasts really are not loving the gun-happy meta.
Sounds to me like your mate would rather complain you into a loss than put down his own (stupidly OP) answers. Then again, that might be my Cygnar-hatred talking.
-und_ed
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on May 16, 2017 15:51:51 GMT
When the Cygnar player is the one moaning, then the world has clearly just gone crazy. For what it's worth, I've taken a vacation from my Legion, playing Circle for a bit, and I gotta tell you I feel drunk with power. Circle feels so much stronger than Legion it's pretty intoxicating. No, I don't think Legion is at all OP. Not even close. Expensive, fragile beasts really are not loving the gun-happy meta. Sounds to me like your mate would rather complain you into a loss than put down his own (stupidly OP) answers. Then again, that might be my Cygnar-hatred talking. -und_ed Haley 2, Stryker 1 and 2, stormwalls in every list. He puts down his "tournament" class answers. As for the move to Khador. I'm not doing because of the argument that Legion is OP. I'm doing because Khador IS powerful at the moment so I don't have stress out building lists and trying to play terrible uphill games. Just like you it's a vacation, to the Motherland Ranch (Vlad3, ponies, and berserker. Just because I want to sprint berserkers into your army and have them explode) I'm also beyond sick of not having my skill as a player acknowledged for the work I put into my games. My final form Kryssa list is 6-0 against a store full of tournament veteran players who boasted about home often they would win and how good they placed. I have one player who does actually defend me and my list's capabilities to said people and I value his opinion and advice above all else. Idk, I'm just being whiny about this I guess. But it's a hell of a lot of work to just be degraded and my work devalued because hellmouths are stupid or some crap like that...
|
|
|
Post by mallios on May 16, 2017 16:28:03 GMT
I feel your pain. I think it's still the mk2 mindset being thrown at us, but anytime i win against experienced people, Legion is OP. When i lose, it's cool though...
Heck, i've been bent over by a pre-CID cryx list(and it's about to get a buff), but if i beat the same player by the same large margin then I'm being "that guy."
|
|
|
Post by snotling on May 16, 2017 16:29:18 GMT
If they really can't deal with hellmouths, your opponents are just not that good.... After people learned how to place models so hellmouths can't pull them (b2b with same distance to the mouth), the competent players stopped compoaining in my area. And who plays hellmouths anymore? xD
|
|
|
Post by zerohour on May 16, 2017 17:01:16 GMT
My meta has a fair bit of this but I don't mind too much. I think it's because I played call of duty 4 in highschool, half the fun of that game was complaining when dumb things happened.
It's natural for people to complain who are still learning, either their army or the match-up. This happens all the time in fighting games. Games where finding the right play require a lot of game knowledge, and in the case of your scythean kill statistical knowledge, leave people salty who might not even know that the odds of that kill were completely reasonable.
When people get caught by a rule or other maybe unintuitive things happen in a game people just will complain sometimes. It's not unreasonable to think"my stupid high Def caster behind this wall should be safe" and when you assume that and it turns out your opponent has an option that counters that it can be an unfullfilling loss. It's not legion being strong or weak, it's you're opponents not knowing and not learning.
My best suggestion after something like this is to either go over the dice math in hard numbers with them or to point out the shortcomings of the model that they could have played around afterward.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 16, 2017 18:43:33 GMT
With Legion more than most Factions I would say it's about being indirectly tricksy. Id say its a faction you need to know about as well as your own.
I can see how people can get "Gotchaed!" from that, which always feels like the worst way to loose. But bitterness and annoyance is still a crappy thing to do.
|
|
Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
|
Post by Whiskie on May 16, 2017 19:18:29 GMT
At this point you should probably just find a way to draw energy from the rage tears of your opponents. Saying "Blight Makes Right" after doing something that infuriates your opponent is a great way to milk their tears. You can further rub it in by telling them that you're not even playing a very strong caster in your Faction and that they should shudder to even imagine what would happen if you brought an A-lister like Fyanna.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 16, 2017 19:26:49 GMT
At this point you should probably just find a way to draw energy from the rage tears of your opponents. "Man why does Warmachine have a player retention problem I just don't know"
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on May 16, 2017 20:48:17 GMT
I'm pretty sure Whiskie isn't serious... Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text.
I wouldn't do that anyways. I like enjoying games, being generous, and letting both sides of the table learn. But a vacation does seem in order.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 16, 2017 21:36:14 GMT
I wouldn't do that anyways. I like enjoying games, being generous, and letting both sides of the table learn. But a vacation does seem in order. Possibly. I think a good way is if you think the other player has no idea what is going on actually explain what your goal is. A Warcaster has allot of stuff printed on their card asking "Have you ever encountered X before? His gimmick is removing all your defensive buffs so be aware of that" I believe removes 90% of frustration. For the other 5% explain how to potentially bypass it, and for the last 5% a kick in the sensitive places (Being Gender Inclusive here ) works like a charm. Also, I was wrong. I checked my calculations so legion Players rejoice! The Odds of a Carnivean One Rounding a Jugger is 5.8% (Assuming a Charge and a Fury spent on that charge). 10% without needing to charge. A Jugger Killing a Carnivean is 9.2% on a charge with a spent focus (And the carnivean having Spines up). 49% with spines down. So overall its a good animus for such an expensive model.
|
|
Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
|
Post by Juris on May 16, 2017 21:38:01 GMT
When the Cygnar player is the one moaning, then the world has clearly just gone crazy. For what it's worth, I've taken a vacation from my Legion, playing Circle for a bit, and I gotta tell you I feel drunk with power. Circle feels so much stronger than Legion it's pretty intoxicating. No, I don't think Legion is at all OP. Not even close. Expensive, fragile beasts really are not loving the gun-happy meta. Sounds to me like your mate would rather complain you into a loss than put down his own (stupidly OP) answers. Then again, that might be my Cygnar-hatred talking. -und_ed Haley 2, Stryker 1 and 2, stormwalls in every list. He puts down his "tournament" class answers. As for the move to Khador. I'm not doing because of the argument that Legion is OP. I'm doing because Khador IS powerful at the moment so I don't have stress out building lists and trying to play terrible uphill games. Just like you it's a vacation, to the Motherland Ranch (Vlad3, ponies, and berserker. Just because I want to sprint berserkers into your army and have them explode) I'm also beyond sick of not having my skill as a player acknowledged for the work I put into my games. My final form Kryssa list is 6-0 against a store full of tournament veteran players who boasted about home often they would win and how good they placed. I have one player who does actually defend me and my list's capabilities to said people and I value his opinion and advice above all else. Idk, I'm just being whiny about this I guess. But it's a hell of a lot of work to just be degraded and my work devalued because hellmouths are stupid or some crap like that... Out of curiosity, where do you play? From your descriptions, your community sounds absolutely terrible and needs an intervention.
|
|
|
Post by Unretained on May 16, 2017 21:53:35 GMT
I wouldn't do that anyways. I like enjoying games, being generous, and letting both sides of the table learn. But a vacation does seem in order. A vacation from Legion is exactly the same as a player retention issue when the player has no interest in buying into another faction.
|
|