gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 14, 2018 18:28:31 GMT
GW does not want, support, nor make competitive games. This has always been the case, both in practice and in what they actually say. I have never understood why players even have tournaments for them.
Which isn't too say that their models aren't awesome, or their games aren't fun... But they never have been nor never will be something to play competitively. Their games just aren't written that way.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 13, 2018 21:23:09 GMT
[tinfoilHat][salt] Pagani has posted more replies (on CiD threads) in the last 2 days than he did in the entire last 2 weeks of the Legion CiD. #evidence [/salt][/tinfoilHat] The "Legion has tools" argument is garbage. Yes, We've had tools. Everyone has tools. Secret Masters in Circle just won top spot in a tourney. A theme that has gotten more hate and despair than CotD ever got. We all have a vast array of tools. The tourney winners have used those tools before, obviously. It's about having few tools and using the same thing over and over and over again. Our tools were L3 and Abby2 fooooor eeeeeveeeer. Then F2 when she came out and we were like "yay something new" then they nerfed OoA. I can win games regularly with the "worst" casters in the faction. So no, we're not dying for good/power models. The problem is every F*ing list looks exactly the same. Swordsmen/Warlord? Check. Character warbeast? Check. Ungodly amounts of Fury management because I took more than TWO beasts? Check. Theme list to make all the support models free? Check. Stupidly costed, high powered Gun on a light warbeast? USE THEM ALL! (seriously near all my lists run 2 bolt throwers. they are just dumb) I don't want power. I don't want you to tell me after the OGRUN CID that it would be best to use a theme full of NYSS! I mean did he really not think the Ogrun CiD models would be a good future list/toolbox? I digress. Generalizations aside. I wish for new inspiration. I have not seen any (in-faction) in a long time. Ice witches didn't do it. This CiD didn't either. I'm more excited for my Croc Pot in the mail than anything. I really plan to put that in a few different lists, along with Valkyries and the better equipped Thrullg. So it's just...weird. I don't think it's a good sign that I'm happier about minion models releasing, to use in a non-minion army, than I am about Legion models being released. Other factions beckon... Seriously, jumping ship completely reinvigorated my interest in the game. Better to look for greener pastures than to keep wishing your pasture had grass.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 13, 2018 16:58:20 GMT
Sorry, I should clarify: most of my statements here are purely from the perspective of "maximum win". Skorne themes and most of our models are pretty much all functional and workable. It's kind of hard to go wrong and playing Minion slavery is super fun!
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 13, 2018 16:55:44 GMT
I still think you can build a better shooting list with Winds of Death than DoA, especially if you include Turtles, but Croaks and Brigands are certainly good so you won't do too badly with them either. I've seen the Mammoth + Splatter Boar combo... It's a trap. The Mammoth simply costs too much and is too difficult to maneuver into position for his shooting output at that those points. Putting him on the table basically requires both a Krea and an Agonizer or he is too easily killed for his points, and at that point you are better off playing IWH.
DoA is our "jank" theme. And there is nothing that jank does better than assassinate. So that's what I'd build the list towards.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 12, 2018 20:39:11 GMT
Bloodrunners don't seem too important until I saw them on the table. Their ability to gum up the enemy, clear chaff, and surgically remove important support models is amazing. I think their ability to jam is what is most important though. Morgul simply doesn't have staying power. He NEEDS the enemy slowed while he deletes them from range until he can set up his assassination run.
Wrastler was the first and easiest model to remove. Primal is better and cheaper, plus it addresses Skorne's hitting problems.
The second raider unit was the second component I excised. With the reposition on the Bloodrunners you can easily get out of the way for what you want to shoot (your own stealth prevents you from blocking LoS). You only need really enough to delete the blocking elements of your opponent's army.
The common mistakes I see in DoA lists: 1. Focusing on including too many minions beasts. You really only need an offensive animus and an arc node. Everything else is just extra gravy to help you delete armor... But there are much better Skorne lists for dealing with mass armor. 2. Focusing on too many infantry units for the extra points. DoA's biggest strength is it's ability to add precious minions animus to the Skorne stable. People get lost in the weeds trying to get free points when they should really just be playing Masters of War if they want a melee infantry list or Winds of Death if you want a shooting infantry list. Your infantry should be there to enable the Assassination run, that is it. 3. Playing anyone other than Morgul2. Every other DoA caster works better in a different theme or is just inferior to the other DoA casters available. Morgul 1 and Naaresh both belong in IWH. They don't need Minions beasts to get work done and they don't support infantry at all. Xekaaar and Morgul3 are both just crappier versions of Morgul1 & 2 respectively. Don't bother.
So I landed on this list. Only part I'm unsure of is the Swamp Gobbers. I'm not sure they are needed but blocking LoS with a cloud can be very handy to protect our beasts on the approach.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 12, 2018 18:16:47 GMT
I think the best way to use a Morgul2 list is to be able to threaten all of his tricks successfully:
War Room Army
Skorne - Morgul 2 doa
Theme: Disciples of Agony 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Lord Assassin Morghoul - WB: +29 - Archidon - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Battle Boar - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Blind Walker - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Cyclops Shaman - PC: 8 - Archidon - PC: 10
Paingiver Task Master - PC: 0 Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor - PC: 0 Paingiver Task Master - PC: 3
Croak Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 Paingiver Bloodrunners - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Paingiver Bloodrunners - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
I love reposition on the Swamp Gobbers to get behind their own cloud wall. Also two task masters can give the Croaks both tough and Reposition for extra survivability. Archidons make great use of Incorporeal and Primal, as well as the feat. Lastly, the Shaman is overwhelmed with great options, with potential to be an arc node, dishing out Primal or Rush, or stripping enemy spells.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 12, 2018 17:07:26 GMT
I understand that more casual gaming can help new players in, however I don't think Warmachine is a very good casual game, getting good requires a lot of effort and getting smashed repeatedly. If someone only wants to play casually they are probably better off with another system. And I'm not saying that to sound d'baggey, I just think there are better games than Warmachine if you just want a fun goofy time. I think this is what really made the Skrum great. After the first 2 rounds or so, people end up playing gamers of a similar caliber. All the while everyone is getting better because we just start a new one a few weeks after the first one ends. Smack is talked, challenges are made. We even have our own dice now. And since everyone gets to talking, the veterans start advising the noobs to help them come up. Meanwhile the vets use it to test their "why not?" lists.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 12, 2018 16:19:20 GMT
So my area (South Jersey/Philadelphia) struggled for a long time until a few of us got industrious and started a league called a Skrum. Basically it's like a steamroller but you play only one game a week. It makes it really easy for people to play. It started with 12 people for our first and now we just finished our 5th Skrum with 32 people! It's a great way to introduce causal gamers to a more competitive scene. I really can't recommend this method enough.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 12, 2018 15:53:34 GMT
I already moved to Skorne after dissatisfaction with Legion and a sweet opportunity on a fully painted army. I paid attention during the CiD but quickly learned that PP had no interest in addressing the issues I have with the faction. What little the CiD did address was pretty good but I never really got into the faction because of the Ogrun.
Before the CiD, I was invested in the discussion of what and how to fix the faction. Now that this process is over (and largely underwhelming), there isn't much left keeping me interested. Maybe once the update drops I'll dust off what I have and give it a shot.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 9, 2018 0:11:49 GMT
I ask the question because I realized that I don't really consider Stealth a useful defense against shooting unless most/all of your army has it.
Any shooting army worth its salt has access to ways to remove/ignore stealth. Flare, Eyeless Sight, True Sight, Arcane Precision, Mist Speakers, Reinholdt, Sprays... and then there are the tech ways to ignore it: Electro-leaps, Ground-pounder, blast damage, getting within 5", etc... I can't remember the last time I was foiled by Stealth, nor that I was able to use Stealth to save me from shooting.
Concealment, on the other hand, seems to have much fewer foils. Sprays and Eyeless Sight and... that's about it? Yet I'm pretty certain that effects that grant Stealth are more valued points-wise than effects that grant Concealment.
Obviously there will be match-ups that are exceptions, but at the end of the day, I'm having trouble of thinking of any defensive rule or spell that I wouldn't rather have over Stealth.
Am I crazy? Is my meta just skewed? Do any of you have shooting lists that have real trouble dealing with Stealth?
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 3, 2018 12:52:30 GMT
Sooo List don't change. You just must pray for dense terrain table and abuse it well. I wouldn't call it fair fight but its doable. When you manage to turtle around building or something you can abuse flight ect to fight jacks one by one. Cut Cortex with Zuriel, apply shadow bind and leave jack in the way. Craelix and team should focus on support stuff. And if you do not want to rely on "praying", and if you were allowed to change your list, how would you change it (or completely replace it) to fight warjacks? There really aren't many options for dealing with Jack spam in Legion. At least, there aren't many options that look good on paper. You have to rely on maneuverability and tricks to defeat them... Which is basically "praying" that the table works too your advantage. Honestly, the more I think about it, "praying" you can use the table is kind of standard issue Legion tactics. You have to hope there is something that flight, Pathfinder, or Eyeless Sight helps with. Alternatively, if Primal Terrors ends up looking like it what it was at the end of week 3 from CiD, there's your answer. Anamag gets work done!
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 30, 2018 22:15:14 GMT
My running hypothesis is that a lot of their effort has been targeted at Crucible, hence Legion and Khador (and PoM if that comes straight after) cids will suffer. Creating tiny new factions before all the main factions have been 'legacied' is quite irritating. But it does make them more money, so...
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 30, 2018 22:11:49 GMT
Not to far off from Cygnar, but overall pretty bad in terms of number of new models, which does support the 'not sure what to do with this theme' hypothesis. Maybe they're losing steam -- the khador CiD will be able to confirm this. Perhaps they should consider adding a couple of new non-theme models in, but I guess they get worried that everyone will be lobbying for too many models to be included then (e.g. during the 12 factions of christmas). I personally believe they should add a new (noncharacter) beast/jack with every cid just so everyone can bring them regardless of theme. Which is kinda weird, considering how wide open the field was. Ogrun artillery, Ogrun ambushers, Ogrun beast support... But hey, birds! That aren't at all like Grotesques! Honest!
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 30, 2018 22:06:49 GMT
Like I said on the CID forum (and it remains to be seen if we're all going to receive infractions for the recent wave of negativity there), I get the feeling that PP doesn't actually have any real legion advocates in their design staff. The CID (and the theme overall, really) is very uninspired and bland. I don't feel like anyone at PP was really pushing for Legion in this CID, there wasn't a lot of exciting new ideas in the theme list compared to the other faction's CIDs. I kinda expect some infractions, but frankly, good. Better that they know.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 30, 2018 21:41:30 GMT
Right. I'm genuinely curious if there was a larger plan at work here. Was there a production snafu and models pulled last minute? Did their primary Legion designer suddenly quit? Do they think that CiDs thus far have been too long or too large and this is the new direction they want to take?
I can think of legitimate reasons. I'm wondering if anyone else knows something I don't?
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