gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 19:51:14 GMT
You were right about the math, assuming MAT 6, though. It's actually 48.6% assuming only a MAT 6... And also assuming attacker only has one initial melee attack.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 19:49:29 GMT
That math is way off. A MAT7 PS18 Attack has <50% chance of killing a Cetrati in one hit. So a fully loaded jack that has to charge kills about 2. And 3 Cetrati take off about 9hp if they put up the shield wall again and you haven't messed up the placement on Vorkesh. So you either divert a heavy and 2 caster focus for 3 turns (maybe even forcing their caster forward depending on their focus stat) or get a hammer to your anvil to finish the jack off. Preferably something that can get back to relative safety and/or relocate easily like Ferox or an Archidon. Remember, in the above scenario you have paid 12p and a free card for that unit. That is pretty damn cheap. As to Mak2: I tried her with Cetrati aswell and was disappointed aswell. And now I think I know why. Keeping them as central life ensurance for Makeda is the wrong approach. I'll have to test them differently soonish. Put them off to a flank, toe a zone so Makeda can go hard on the other flank with a unit of Ferox and an Archidon or two, maybe Molik. 12 points is NOT cheap to divert a heavy, when a Rhinodon can take the charge, live, and then put far more damage on the charger. 12 points also is not the "real" cost because you are losing a free slot which could be a TyComm, etc. Also I can divert that heavy just as well with a unit of Karax for cheaper. Who are also faster, can't get jammed up thanks to native Tactician, and have Girded. Can a unit of Cetrati do what you need? Absolutely. Can they do it efficiently for their point cost? Not by my reckoning, nor do they really do it better than other options for the same it cheaper points, except for a few niche scenarios. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 17:02:20 GMT
At ARM 20 (under shield wall) and 5 wounds, they die to the average Attack from a heavy (I'm assuming ps18). That heavy, assuming an average of arm 18, they barely dent. They are slower, more expensive, and more difficult to place thanks to lacking native Tactician than a full unit of Karax. They haven't got enough attacks to hurt infantry. The only thing they have over Karax is better ability to crack armor, but if they are really actually hurting a heavy they aren't in Shield wall. All the buffs given to them to make them better work similarly well, or better, on Karax.
The only other reason to take them over Karax I find is resistance to continuous effects and auto wound effects. Fire unfortunately still hurts them decently as well.
On top of this, they don't provide Girded.
They just seem to be a strictly inferior version of Karax.
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gordo
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My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 15:31:46 GMT
Zuriel needs 14 defense. Otherwise his animus largely doesn't do much unless you happen to be playing the right caster. And since the "right caster" didn't include all three of the casters he is bonded with, that's kind of crap. Also Gunfighter or often his Quickwork does nothing, especially since with Precision Strike he is meant to cripple and not kill, our when facing him against infantry you are either wasting all his attacks by not getting him in melee range of more or you are wasting Quick Work.
Typhon with his current abilities costs 1-2 points too much, but since we have really no other beasts like him, this is a harder point to argue. However, two things always bothered me with him. He has 6 limbs and a tail, but still only 3 melee attacks. He probably shouldn't have more melee initials, but those limbs should be represented SOMEhow... And Pathfinder is really the perfect fit. Carniveans have it because of their four limbs, but move up to 6 and you suddenly lose it? Lame. Also, has anyone ever gotten much, if any, use out of his Thagrosh bond? It seems completely irrelevant on every game I've ever played him, and it's always been kinda frustrating to me that Typhon is better with almost every other caster we have than he is with his bestest buddy Thaggers. Awkward... I think changing his bond to something more regularly useful would help address this. Maybe Hyper-regeneration, or "when transferring damage to Typhon, he heals d3"... Right now the bond largely just serves to say "Thagrosh can field him and the Nephilim-Bros in an otherwise pretty awkward CotD list"
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 2:58:59 GMT
What factions will not have received a CID by the summer and Pirates? Off the top of my head, I think it's only Skorne and the had their remake. From there would it be safe to assume that PP will turn around again to the other factions? The question becomes if PP will expand on existing themes or create new ones. Clearly it will be time for another Cryx or Cygnar CiD. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 1, 2018 21:45:36 GMT
no worries gordo, maybe i'm just a little overly sensitive since its still a bit of a sore spot for me. Context is hard on the internet. Sorry. Thanks for the apology and reply. Yeah next legion CID is probably a couple years out ish. All good. I've been told to "shut up, you had Mk2" for over 2 years now. It is really frustrating, so i get it. But, hey... I really like the new Minions stuff, so good on you! I moved onto Skorne myself (which ironically has only strengthened my urge to complain about Legion, now that I know what I'm missing, but eh... At least I'm getting some great games in) |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 1, 2018 21:39:35 GMT
Oh I'm sorry, none of this was supposed to come off as a "shut up" attitude. I actually like reading negative posts regarding Legion because it makes me feel "less alone" in my opinion. But I also know how bad focusing on it was for my enjoyment of the game. I was really just trying to give friendly advice :/ I'm sorry if it came off any other way. Reading the post again, I can see how it did come out that way though. My bad. Given how poorly the Legion CiD went in addressing our issues, I had to lower my expectations. I don't think we are scheduled for another CiD in a LONG time, unfortunately. The only ways they could make CotD worse is they removed Azrael and to a lesser extent Zuriel or started gutting Nyss. I have nothing against the model in it, but the theme is so laughably bad outside of a few builds and especially compared to other themes that I can only see it improving, however minor those changes may be. Also, the current CID time table will end mid summer with Pirates, which would allow them to announce the next set of CIDs during either L&L or GenCon. Finally, what issues did you think went unaddressed? Keep in mind, that PP is probably no longer balancing Legion as a whole much anymore. Ogrun before were hard to deliver for their points, and I feel between Chosen, BB buffs, and cheaper Warmongers, the theme is in a good place, which was the intent of the CID. So maybe 6 months before we get more addressed. Not as long as I thought. My biggest issues with the Primal Terrors CID was that despite Legion's many issues, it was the smallest CiD to date, with minimal developer interaction. I regularly watched people who obviously don't play Legion go in and intentionally sabotage it. (Watching those same people take part in the Khador CiD suddenly not at all concerned about balance is what clinched it for me). It feels to me like they think there are few, if any, problems with Legion. I could list the many issues I have with Legion, again, but as I mentioned... I don't think it's constructive at this point to do so. Those gripes will simply go unanswered for at least 6 months, and probably not addressed at all given what I've seen. And who knows? Maybe they are right, the the Legion of Fyanna2 is just the way they want it, and I'm crazy to want something else. Maybe seeing how well the other CiDs turned out just got my hopes up too high. But it's very clear to me that what I want addressed isn't going to be. And based on the responses in this thread alone, I'm far from alone. But you are right in that Primal Terrors will work well. I expect to see some pretty strong Blightbringer + 40-60 points of infantry, mostly Chosen. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 1, 2018 19:08:41 GMT
as i clearly stated in the post gordo, i have started playing minions. i really don't even think my post was that bad. and just because they were not willing to make more changes during the last CID doesn't mean i will not continue to think of new possibilities that would be worthwile. like having more beast shield guard options than one over-costed nephilim. they were not willing to go down other faction change roads during the PT CID. but once the CID comes around for those other faction options, i will be ready with clear ideas and suggestions. also, just a little bit of push back here, i understand warding against overly negative posts, but don't tell me how to enjoy the faction or the game. It took a lot of work from the community for them to fix skorne and trolls. I would like to avoid legion falling into that space. And I think that will take work from the player base to make sure PP hears us. chilly exactly. i have far more hope for the CoTD CID, rather than what came out of PT. i fully expect it to be buy these new super cool and powerful nephilim, which I will. with a shut up and take my money attitude. Oh I'm sorry, none of this was supposed to come off as a "shut up" attitude. I actually like reading negative posts regarding Legion because it makes me feel "less alone" in my opinion. But I also know how bad focusing on it was for my enjoyment of the game. I was really just trying to give friendly advice :/ I'm sorry if it came off any other way. Reading the post again, I can see how it did come out that way though. My bad. Given how poorly the Legion CiD went in addressing our issues, I had to lower my expectations. I don't think we are scheduled for another CiD in a LONG time, unfortunately. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 1, 2018 17:32:50 GMT
Very much what you said. Again, my ideal example of what a theme should be: Black Industries. Model Limitations? Check. almost no infantry allowed Hard benefit? Check. Carapace Soft benefit? Check. +2" deployment Where Legion falls down so hard is that the benefits are not great, and the limitations are twice as restrictive as other factions' (limiting both battlegroup and infantry) -und_ed carapace is too strong as a theme benefit. it was only a matter of time before slayer spam became a thing. unyielding is more reasonable, and a benefit we have, which is great, we just don't have enough nephilim to play, and some of the lights are over-costed still. I do agree that on the whole our themes have weaker benefits than a lot of other themes, especially the stronger ones. having switched over to minions and started playing blindwater theme and WWFF, those are what theme benefits should be. WHY CAN"T WE HAVE SHIELD GUARD AS A BENEFIT? Bad road to go down now that CiD is over. We saw the last CiD, they don't have any interest in changing their "vision" for Legion, especially the themes. So if you don't like our current themes, you will just work yourself into fits with this thought path. I know I have. Figure out how to make them fun, make your homebrew rules, or move onto another faction/game. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 1, 2018 0:21:51 GMT
Rasheth really wants tough ranged models so that his feat can double dip. Makes his army hit hard followed by a weaker retaliation. Masters of War has few good ways to make this happen. Cetrati are about the only way you can do that, but they pretty much are bad across the board, so...
The alternative make sure your army is fast enough to get the charge. To that end, you really want two units of Ferrox, both of whom work pretty well with the free TyComms you get. For beasts, I would run a Gladiator to speed up Archidon missiles.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 28, 2018 18:43:31 GMT
In the right list cetrati can be really good. Make sure you bring vorkesh, as they absolutely need steady and sacred ward. No knockdown tough and that high armor stat helps offset the nerd they got in the transition. Helps, doesn't fix, but it helps. They can work nicely in Masters of war since you'll get a ty com for free and don't have to spend more points on them. In my lists the 3 free solos I get are 2 ty com and vorkesh and that feels like value to me so I don't complain too much. Try em with mak1 or mak2 I could see wanting them for Makeda1 if you wanted more armor cracking. But Karax do everything else they do but better feels like, for cheaper. Unless you are getting hit with lots of corrosion or puncture type attacks. Makeda2 feels like she should be playing Swordsmen. And really playing anything other than double Ferrox with either Makeda seems like a mistake. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 28, 2018 14:32:14 GMT
While we're here, does anyone have experience with Legends under Defensive Ward + Star Crossed? I've been thinking about something like that so Xerxis can march his army down one board side and still have something that'll hold the other. I had to fight this with my old Fyannacles list. He was playing Makeda1 with all the minions-fixins and it was a nightmare. This experience is what made me want to punch people when they cried "broken" at Fyanna2. It's also why I stopped playing her (and largely, Legion in general) So yeah, it's pretty damn legit. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 28, 2018 14:27:12 GMT
Funny you should say that, I just made this Xerxes1 list, using Karax because Cetrati blow:
War Room Army
Skorne - warriorsvxerxes
Theme: Masters of War
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Tyrant Xerxis - WB: +28
- Agonizer - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
- Basilisk Krea - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7)
- Basilisk Krea - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7)
- Archidon - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8)
Tyrant Rhadeim - PC: 9
- Tyrant Rhadeim (Continued)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker - PC: 4
Extoller Soulward - PC: 3
Praetorian Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13
- Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
Praetorian Ferox - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20
Praetorian Karax - Leader & 9 Grunts: 11
- Praetorian Karax Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Tyrant & Bearer: 0
Legends of Halaak - Valgesh, CIdaar & J'Deth: 8
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
THEME: Masters of War
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 27, 2018 22:32:29 GMT
Thank you! I have been looking at the themes and the two at the top of my list are Imperial WarHost and Masters of War. I have seen a number of people lament not having enough RFP vs Cryx and I remember a lot of my battle plans getting stalled by tough models in MK2. Granting all my warriors the ability to ignore tough and the option to RFP sounds like I should have at least one list in that theme I am adept with. I am considering a classic Xerxis brick with it. Whenever I read Imperial Warhost I always imagine it as a list full of titans, beast handlers and a Gobber Chef to feed the beast handlers to the titans. It also looks like a list that would love some Swamp Gobber Raiders. -2 STR from their poisoned weapons on top of -2 STR from the Agonizer seems like enough to turn most any anything a titan would fear into a wet noodle. I have tried all of those. They all work great! They aren't our most "optimal" builds but they certainly work. Except for Cetrati. They are terrible. |
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gordo
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My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 27, 2018 19:04:04 GMT
So there are basically two ways to play in Mk3:
In theme, giving you bonus rules and free models but with limited model selection
Out of theme, restricting nothing but giving you nothing.
Everyone pretty much plays in theme, because if your themes are good than its just "better". Fortunately, Skorne themes are good! So I'd recommend you figure out which theme you like or fits your budget, and then play that. Looking at your models, Imperial War Host looks like you fit it pretty easily without any new purchases, and Morgul runs that decently.
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