gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 19, 2018 19:36:09 GMT
I've had some other people basically describe the problem thusly:
The turtle is an issue, not because there is no counter-play, nor because it is so strong you can't ever defeat it, but because it dominates list construction so much and has little to no effective weaknesses of its own. It's part of a larger problem for Skorne because there isn't much (any?) reason to play without it in the themes it is allowed in for almost everyone, and also because without it there isn't anything particularly good available to those themes.
You could address just it, and take Skorne out of any competitive running (which it isn't dominating at all, btw). But the better solution is to address the issue faction wide.
For example, Skorne's heavy shooting options are... Lack luster, at best. The Titan chassis, outside of a few casters, isn't very good either, and certainly not much you can build a list around, at least in top level competition. By the turtle is both so strong, so fast, and so durable, and with it's own reasonable enough guns, it out classes any other Skorne options anyway, even if they were better priced.
As it exists now, it basically defines the themes available to it, much like our Beast Handlers, or Menoth Choir, etc. Only I don't think it was their intention to make the Turtle a faction definer.
Then again, the Northkin theme pretty much doesn't work without their Hoochhauler. Convergence leans just as heavily on their TEP with some of their casters. So maybe this really was their intention?
So the answer isn't very simple.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 19, 2018 14:09:41 GMT
I think our stable of heavy beasts is in poor shape. Soldiers and Sentries are the only two I'm slightly excited to field, but the Soldier is very susceptible to control effects like Telekinesis, and can only survive a melee engagement if backed by the often-sprayed-dead Agonizer. The Sentry can really struggle to kill much sometimes too. The Archidons and Rhinodon are decent. I don't begrudge them. The rest of our heavies put a sour taste in my mouth when I think about how tight their design leash is. I hate the two def our entire heavy chassis lost for purely lore-related reasons. The Gladiator got more expensive in our redesign. Significantly, Chiron and Despoiler, two great character heavies, are languishing in theme purgatory and bonded to intensely sub par warlocks. I consider Tiberion overcosted by a lot. Molik has a lot glass in his cannon. The Sentinel, Bronzeback, and Canonneer I can't help but think of as liabilities that will hardly ever meet their potential. So, to me the excellence of Animantarax's serves a very important purpose: They are actually good and they don't rely on Rush from the Gladiator. I wouldn't mind a small tweak to them, such as losing trample. Their trample is only ever a gun range extender, which is not what trample is supposed to be I've basically heard from a bunch of top-tier players that the only reason Skorne has competitive-Ness with the likes of Cygnar or Cryx is because of the turtle. Some themes are supposed to have aggressively costed models, this may be one of them. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 19, 2018 14:06:25 GMT
Woah there, that is a LOT of nerfs if you want it to remain at 17 points. Keep in mind the relative strength of the other Vale engines. Your suggestions would pretty much make it a "never-include"
Though I do agree it is too strong for its points, though I think part of that is that our similarly costed models are over priced. I would just bump its cost to 20, maybe reduce speed to 7 (no need to make it faster than some cavalry, it's a freaking turtle).
If they reduced it's spd to 6 it stops serving as a front line piece and becomes more of a line holder, which means its shooting would need to come up or it would need some other tech. It does have that giant tower with a horn-blower on the back that does nothing. I could see that changed to some kind of leadership ability. Like able to give battle orders, or maybe Veteran Leader... But both of those would make it a weird inclusion into IWH.
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gordo
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Apr 18, 2018 17:12:17 GMT
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Post by gordo on Apr 18, 2018 17:12:17 GMT
Why Xekaar instead of Morgul 2 or 3?
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 18, 2018 14:52:36 GMT
My suspicion is that CotD will become an infantry based theme (points for infantry instead of beasts). It MIGHT open up beast options but retain only buffs for Nephilim. They will also probably improve the Nephilim themselves a bit, probably with 1-2 point reductions.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 12, 2018 21:47:56 GMT
Have you been paying attention to the latest points changes as part of the Primal Terrors update? Also, are your tables following the SR2017 rules (7 ish terrain pieces and LoS blocking in the center)? Both of these should help you eek out a few wins here and there
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 12, 2018 13:48:29 GMT
I just can't imagine that Rhyas with only Critical Decap and PS 13 and fury 5 has enough oomph to reliably assassinate. Hordes casters will just transfer away the one critical, and as rule it's pretty unreliable.
Against squishier casters, for sure, but that feels like a pretty limited game plan and not a very flexible "drop". To me you would want to be about to always THREATEN the assassin run while still enabling the threat of the rest of your army, which in her case is going to be melee only.
Take a look at JVMs Rhyas list from SOO. It was double Thrones and Scytheans, if I recall, which in their own have super strong assassin potential on her feat turn. Played in Oracles with BFS and Bayal to lower defenses and proc Battlewizard from the feat attacks, you've got extremely unpredictable threat angles. Then you have the icing which is Rhyas herself. I think my version of the list would look something like this:
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - rhyas Oracles
Theme: Oracles of Annihilation
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight - WB: +30
- Zuriel - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18)
- Scythean - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Seraph - PC: 14
Throne of Everblight - PC: 16
Beast Mistress - PC: 0
- Shredder - PC: 4
- Shredder - PC: 4
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blackfrost Shard - Sevryn, Rhylyss & Vysarr: 9
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight - PC: 0
Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
THEME: Oracles of Annihilation
You end up with a crazy amount of unpredictable threat angles. Hex Hunters Shadow Binding and Hex Blasting everything, Ice Witches for Puppet Master, even the Mistress and Shredders enjoying their additional attack and placement for fun Flank antics.
If you can get a Murderous Rapport Scythean anywhere near their caster... *shudder*
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 10, 2018 19:39:32 GMT
I would not think Rhyas hits so strongly in melee that this would be reliable. It seems you would be playing to the secondary part of her kit (her personal threat rather than army support).
Rhyas seems she would be most (only, really) viable in Primal Terrors, which more or less necessitates a Blightbringer, which in turn takes up just about all her beast points available. Your could throw away your third solo to get a Ravagore after that I suppose so she can kinda hide inside its Scather from non 2" reach infantry.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 10, 2018 14:18:55 GMT
I almost made a spamming Battle Boar list with Naaresh. Under feat and Animus and Painals they are mat 7, PS 18, two attacks, free charging, ARM 20. Seemed legit. But the lack of free points seems to mitigate any gains I would get by spamming budget beasts
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 7, 2018 0:27:07 GMT
Jalaam and Makedas feats are both wasted on Aradus. Xerxes2 speed buff seems sort of wasted on them too, but my decision was mostly influenced by without a Krea Xerxes2 would just get shot off the table. The whole point of using X2 was to forgo the need for Krea and to make good use of the Agonizers. But they are best served when taking the hit in the face, not struggling for the alpha.
Granted, as mentioned earlier, spamming Aradus is a flawed idea from the start unless facing very specific lists (shooting lists that use Blessed weapons), so this is really just putting lipstick on a pig here.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 6, 2018 22:55:59 GMT
My goal here is "what if they made them for every faction?" I just found this optimism very funny. I find your lack of faith oddly comforting. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 6, 2018 18:46:07 GMT
So looking at zero casters, if we accept what they said already, they are NOT meant to be balanced with existing options. They are meant to tilting games, which from a story perspective makes sense given their legendary status. They have little to no opportunity cost to include either, so basically they are just straight power-ups for the factions that get them. This is especially irksome because they are taking factions that clearly already get tons of attention (maybe not Protectorate) and giving them a clear power increase while leaving everyone else alone. If you disagree with this premise, go argue it in the other thread.
My goal here is "what if they made them for every faction?" Not just which caster, but what iconic ability would they take from that caster and then make broadly available to the entire faction? And clearly they are picking them based on fluff as well, not just "who is most iconic/popular for their faction", otherwise we would have had Asphyxious0, Nemo0, etc
I'd love to say Thagrosh for Legion, by the faction really didn't exist before him, so we'd have to pick someone else. Given that, I'd say Vayl0. She was one of the first to join Everblight and not much is said about her initial "introductory" period. I'd say for iconic ability, I'd copy Sev0 a bit and give her Fury 5 and Incite. Possibly Refuge.
For Skorne, I'd do Makeda0, from the days when she was working with Vinter (or whatever his name was). Probably give her Stay Death (the one that costs fury) and Carnage, make her Fury 4. She'd need to play up front and risky but obviously could tilt some stuff with those.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 6, 2018 14:41:23 GMT
I heard this "Denny0 dies to a drifted AoE" line before as justification, and it's kinda misguided. It only happens when she is sitting on zero focus, which we assume she got to because she cast Parasite and boosted to hit. So she ends up at ARM 15 at this point, because Parasite gives you +1 ARM. The "high end" of blast damage is going to be hitting at POW 8. Meaning you are at dice -7. Meaning you need TWO AoEs to drift onto her to kill her. That's a lot of firepower dedicated to get rid of ONE 4 point solo. Sure, she loses control over her Jack at that point, but honestly guys... Once that chicken-Jack is that close, did you really expect it to be there the following turn? Of course not. The important part was deleting whatever heavy/caster you put Parasite on.
Btw, you do NOT need to boost to hit with Parasite for many targets. Between Shadowbind and Stationery and feats, Cryx has plenty of good ways to lower that defense for her. Nevermind the fact that even if she does miss, unlike with your normal caster, you have not risked nearly as much to try this.
Are the new casters cool? Sure, if you are one of PPs favorite some. Are they FAR AND AWAY better than anything else even remotely at the point value (aka "broken")? C'mon guys, I can't believe we are even arguing this.
PP does sometimes make aggressively costed models for factions (look no further than Houseguard Halberdiers if you need proof), and that's "fine". They becoming defining aspects their faction. But do the factions getting these solos REALLY need them to define their faction? Didn't these factions already have models that defined the aspects their faction? Did Cryx need more debuffs? Did Cygnar really need more help shooting?
Of course not. Can these models still have places if they were appropriately costed? Sure.
If they were appropriately costed. Since they are often free, that's even more difficult to do.
So I'm left with the assumption that PP really WANTS them to be better than all other options. Which, they have already stated publicly. Makes sense given their name and status. But if that's the case, it's pretty much a giant slap in the face to anyone who made the mistake of buying their other factions.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 6, 2018 13:10:24 GMT
The thing with Aradus is their shooting defense comes baked in. They simply don't need Krea support to survive gun lines. Also it can't be cancelled by Blessed weapons, purification, etc. Even armor piercing gets hosted by it (kinda).
The thing about Soldiers is they are PS 18 built in: this means with the right casters they don't need Paingivers.
Spamming any beast basically means you are playing IWH. Which means you get your Agonizer and Krea for free.
The benefits being you could really double down on Agonizers and also be not as poorly affected by people targeting your Paingivers. So, to that end...
War Room Army
Skorne - New Army
Theme: Imperial Warhost
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Lord Tyrant Zaadesh - WB: +28
- Aradus Sentinel - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16)
- Aradus Sentinel - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Aradus Soldier - PC: 16
- Aradus Soldier - PC: 16
- Aradus Sentinel - PC: 16
- Aradus Soldier - PC: 16
- Agonizer - PC: 0
- Agonizer - PC: 0
- Agonizer - PC: 0
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7
THEME: Imperial Warhost
---
GENERATED : 04/06/2018 09:04:24
BUILD ID : 2061.18-02-21
Like your typical Zaadesh army, it's built to take it in the face and force a difficult decision on your opponent. Everything in it has Pathfinder, it has tons of anti-infantry options between scathers and Snacking, everything in it has great defenses against shooting, and it will be very difficult to shut down the Agonizer bubble making it resilient in melee as well.
Also because it doesn't rely on Krea and has Battle-charged, it can make fairly interesting use of Hyper-Aggressive when shot at.
Something I just noticed: Sentinels have open fist, so even though they are pretty pillowed, they can still throw enemies away to clear up Soldiers, as well as make up for the lack of good MAT in the army.
I still don't think this list is good by any means, but it does answer some questions (like what to do about Orion shooting spam).
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 5, 2018 18:08:45 GMT
Being dismounted is not the same as being disabled. Thus he does not. That's what I thought, but I noticed the Champion of the Wall only had tough on his unmounted form, which made me think that you was intentional to prevent you from getting tough checks while mounted. Looking at it now, I suspect this was done to make it abundantly clear that you wouldn't get tough checks while mounted. Ah well |
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