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Post by callios on Apr 12, 2018 20:10:43 GMT
Hey everyone,
if you would be so kind, i really, really need your help in restoring my faith in this wonderful faction of ours.
My story so far: I started playing with the edition change to MKIII and - as a long-time Dark Eldar and Tyranid player - was immediately drawn to Legion.
The gaming group close by consists mainly of tournament players, including the factions Menoth, Circle, Convergence and Grymkin. My opponents are very patient, nice and forgiving towards my inexperience. They even help me plan my turns an correct my movements, if need be. But since day one i am piling up defeat after defeat.
Over the last year i kept trying to find a list and a warlock that works for me. My attempt was to try and figure out the list that works well for me and after that, i would concentrate on things like scenario and the different play styles (attrition, assassination, etc.) I've read this wonderful forum, a lot of blogs, watched almost every legion battle report that's out there and felt my head buzzing with ideas... until the minis stand on the table and i am destroyed once more.
Every list i build feels ok/good to me in theory, but apart from the classical mis-match i have faced in some games, my lists always seem to lack the mechanics to function on the tabletop or a wa to counter the mechanics of the opposite army. I am fully aware of the fact, that the first year of playing a new game and/or new faction does not result in a tournament win with flying colours, but a little success from time to time would've been nice ;-)
My impression in most games is that other factions do have a lot more tricks up their sleeve than Legion does. Or maybe i am just sitting in front of this big toolbox that is Legion and i am too unintuitive to see how it works. At this time, i am not sure or confident at all.
The warlocks i have tried so far are: Thags 1 and 2 Kryssa Fyanna Lylyth1
I played the themes Oracles, Ravens and CotD, all with a big portion of beasts, because i like beasts and units just don't seem to work for me, because they just get removed of the table way too quickly to be of any effect.
Surely i have made many, many mistakes during my games and that contributes to my experience as well, and maybe Legion is just a little more unforgiving as other factions, but i really want to make this work for me, because the game is great, the miniatures are great and it would be a shame, if all the money i have already invested only leads to nothing but frustration. People ar doing great in tournaments, so why is it that i seem to be unable to build a list that offers an enjoyable gaming experience for me and my opponent?
Sorry, if this sounds like a lot of whining.
If you have some insight an the time and patience to share it, you are very welcome. Your help would be very much appreciated.
Thanks a lot in advance.
BR, Callios
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Post by newsun on Apr 12, 2018 20:27:17 GMT
I'd start with fyanna and thags1 as they are fairly forgiving locks with their feat helping you keep models on the table and both increasing damage output. What does the rest of your collection look like. We could help you with some basic lists and recommended additions.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 12, 2018 21:20:20 GMT
First off, you're not whining. Don't feel bad about asking for help. We want new people to play and join the community.
I want to say that we do have a large toolbox. Because in plain writing we do. It does take a lot of experience and thinking outside to box to get them to work.
I can understand if you feel units are not good for you. But I myself have been playing more and more infantry since MKIII started. We have been given tools to leverage a combined arms sort of approach now.
For Example
Grymkin and Circle have a majority of their faction as living models (Setting Bones lists aside for the moment). Poison bows on Raptors, Anyssa Ryssl, and Craelix can do a lot of work against their beasts from a good range.
Convergence - I see a lot of the Auto-Knockdown Pow20 Jack. If you have a bunch of swordsmen that one really powerful hit is wasted on a single wound model.
Things like that. But I don't want to make you think you are required to play infantry.
What kinds of beasts do you own and how many of each? That really will influence what lists you can build and what you would be missing out on.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Apr 12, 2018 21:47:56 GMT
Have you been paying attention to the latest points changes as part of the Primal Terrors update? Also, are your tables following the SR2017 rules (7 ish terrain pieces and LoS blocking in the center)? Both of these should help you eek out a few wins here and there
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Post by copperflame on Apr 12, 2018 21:48:28 GMT
Tyranid and Dark Eldar? Man - that is exactly where I came from before I started with Legion. I completely understand where you came from and how you came here mate I agree with the rest - it would help to know what your collection is to give more advice. F2 and T1 are both really good casters so that part you have covered. F2 with the OoA Flying Circus set is solid (let us know if you don't know what I'm referring to). That list has won plenty of tourney's. T1 with the CotD w/ Typhon and Hexblades has been popular in recent tourney's but you may not have the character models. If not, T1 in OoA with Typhon + Carnivean x2 or x3 and Hexblades has been a staple of my lists. L1 I like with Thrones but you may not have that setup... she's very Minion friendly (if you go out of theme, Typhon + Seraph are an option but you may not be ready to face down being that low on points compared to your mates). I hear that Grymkin and Circle hate Scytheans (if you can hold them back so they don't die too early) if that helps?
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Apr 13, 2018 1:24:15 GMT
I think the key aspect to playing legion well is to not play fair. You ignore lots of rules and go very fast, but you are paying points for it. This true for a lot of factions, but if you are playing with beasts in Legion we are fairly unique in the fact that we cant avoid it.
I don't think list construction holds back a lot of newer Legion players, I think it is playstyle. For instance, a lot of factions will offer up some sort of sacrificial piece and then attempt to take more on the counter punch, but we don't really have anything to just offer up. Some factions attempt to win the shooting game with cost-effective guns and synergy that lets them hit above their weight class, but we don't have too much that fits that bill. Compare your model's stats and cost vs other factions, you will not come out on top.
If you eat an alpha, it has to be limited to a piece your opponent threw every buff on and chucked across the table. If you take concentrated shooting, you can't lose a beast on turn two. We just don't trade effectively, but we can still win. If your list has flying you need to be poking your head around a building. If your list has speed you can't inch your models just out of safe shooting range, you need to claim board space while avoiding the brunt of the first wave of guns.
I see a lot of people play F2 and ult to protect their advance. While not off the table, you need to consider that a poor use of the feat. You win with F2 when you alpha and then feat. Knowing how to do this comes with practice, but I think it helps to approach with the general idea that you do not want to feat until your army has slammed into theirs.
With Thags1 you can feat back a beast, but your goal should not be to use that to absorb a wave of gunshots on an obvious target.
I think with Legion if both players rush at each other Legion will lose most of the time (with a few notable exceptions).
I also think in a tournament setting Legion can field two armies that play very very differently, and that can give you a crushingly huge advantage.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Apr 13, 2018 5:02:07 GMT
Legion is a hard faction to play. That's what makes winning with Legion so much better.
Can you show us some lists that you've played?
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 13, 2018 5:56:00 GMT
I see a lot of people play F2 and ult to protect their advance. While not off the table, you need to consider that a poor use of the feat. You win with F2 when you alpha and then feat. Knowing how to do this comes with practice, but I think it helps to approach with the general idea that you do not want to feat until your army has slammed into theirs. May I ask what makes you say that? I've won most of my games protecting my army with her feat and then counter-punching. She's the only way Legion has any sort of survivability, which is what it needs to get a good hit in. Not trying to argue, by the way. I love Fyanna, and any experience contrary to mine is always interesting to hear about.
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 13, 2018 5:58:21 GMT
I would second what newsun said. Fyanna is a great warlock, and very much a point and click one as well. Thags isn't as simple, but its more about timing with him than it is a complex plan. He offers great support. If you like him, I would recommend picking up Hex Hunters. They like Fog of War A LOT.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Apr 13, 2018 6:33:38 GMT
Fyanna2 and Thagrosh1 are cool suggestions. I would add Abby1 to the list. She was currently updated in the CID and got new life. Theme: Oracles You would really need Proteus with her, after that it's not settled yet. I'm playing with Archangel, Seraph, Angelius, Naga and Farror Valkiries but I think that builds with flying circus or 3xcarniveans should fine to. I would take Valkiries anyway. They can help you to keep your best alive from one rounding with guns, then you can heal it with feat whihc makes this list good into gunlines. Refuge will give some training with cheating trades. You can charge witch Angelius, double boost armor piercing attack, push back with repulse and advance back. This gives you up to 12" between you and target you just hited. Another good use of this spell is Proteus pulling something closer and going back. Blightburst is another good tool. You can casts it on your heavy and other heavies wtihout 2" reach can't use focus/fury to kill you. Proteus can pull something, and casts his animus to deny movement -> it will work on longer reach too. Yesterday I managed to arc it throug spell martyr on Kraken do deny it spending focus to charge which reduced his threat. Watch out for free charges
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Apr 13, 2018 10:25:59 GMT
I played a lot of Thagrosh1 when I started. Very neat. Powerful, but if you make a mistake and loose a heavy you can feat him back and it starts to become a feature of the game play - sacrificing a piece for an advantage and not loosing it is great.
I think getting a list that you like is step one.
Then play it 4 or 5 times and see if you are learning things about it. Don't change it for a while - and you will notice that you improve how you play it each time. You will also start to learn what matchups are good for it and what are bad for it.
The key features of legion: Everything is quite quick. Everything does reasonable damage in a variety of ways. Everything is quite fragile and expensive.
This means we can't afford to take alpha strikes much, and we don't piece trade well.
What we do have is: All our casters have strong assassination plays, and we often get to choose which pieces we want to remove from quite far away. This is our strength.
So you can clear zones effectively, and play Scenario well, attrition though can be very hard unless you can cheap a piece trade.
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Post by yourmumrang on Apr 13, 2018 10:32:59 GMT
We *REALLY* need to know what models you have.
However I would hugely recommend Thags1 and Fyanna2. Fyanna can break bricks and with feat survive as well as play tricks with your toolkit.
Thags1 would be good with Raptors in CoTD into those Hordes lists. Raptors with +2 def to shooting and access to +2 str are good and you have Thags' feat allowing you to fix any Firetruck ups which kill a beast.
But first tell us your model collection!
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Apr 13, 2018 11:28:49 GMT
I see a lot of people play F2 and ult to protect their advance. While not off the table, you need to consider that a poor use of the feat. You win with F2 when you alpha and then feat. Knowing how to do this comes with practice, but I think it helps to approach with the general idea that you do not want to feat until your army has slammed into theirs. May I ask what makes you say that? I've won most of my games protecting my army with her feat and then counter-punching. She's the only way Legion has any sort of survivability, which is what it needs to get a good hit in. Not trying to argue, by the way. I love Fyanna, and any experience contrary to mine is always interesting to hear about. I play Fyanna in a very similar way to how I played Saeryn in Mk.II, and I think a lot of people played Saeryn with a simmilar mindset. Feat, run everything into melee, and wait. This does two main things, your opponent has a chance to mitigate what you can retaliate on and you lose a turn of models activating on an enemy. Lets say for the sake of argument that each model has a flat point cost equal to their offensive output. You can either activate 75 points into your opponent for one turn (feat to protect advance) or 50 points for two turns (feat after alpha). This is easier to do if you go first, but the same general strategy applies. If we are just going to consider Angels/Neraphs unkillable under her feat (I know this is not always true), it would be better to lose one and let the rest alpha under feat then to protect just one and let the a large chunk die on the counterpunch. There are always going to be exceptions, times when you need to feat on the advance, times when it is better to feat and jam your opponent out of zones, and I think recognizing that comes with practice. I just think the mindset with F2 should not be to feat on the advance, and instead use all the tools every other caster uses to protect your advance. Hide behind houses and abuse flight, chill behind a forest and abuse how everything has pathfinder.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 13, 2018 14:55:13 GMT
Fyanna 2 dude spam is Fun! try it Def 19 raptors Vs shooting (feat and concealment from Blightbringer). *scottish acent "Yewr punny guns kahn't hit a 13 on two dice now can theh?!" And i mean the other experienced people. Not Callios. It would not be a good list for you to try and play/learn. [/OffTopic]
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Apr 13, 2018 15:11:01 GMT
I like to give you some general advice:
1.) A one year loosing streak isn´t unusual in this game. Keep faith!
2.) Play each and every list at least 10 times! Do not change lists between games! That way you´ll learn what works and what doesn´t work FOR YOU.
2.1.) Note after each game which model / unit contributed to the game and which didn´t. That way you will learn which models/units will work for you. Alter your lists accordingly.
2.2.) Ask your opponent: When did I loose the game? Often there are mistakes 1 or 2 turns back that caused you to loose the game. Learn from it!
3.) Take a picture at the beginning and end of every turn. That way you can see what went wrong, where your models had to be in order to not loose.
4.) Watch battle reports on youtube. It will help!
5.) Although I avoid playing copy and paste lists, it sure will help to overcome one of the many obstacles a less experienced player will face.
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As an opponent, I second that Thagrosh 1 high ARM spam as well as Fyanna2 high DEF spam are the things that I don´t like to face. But you should take into consideration, that a low model count – low number but high value of attacks army is not easy to play. I think that Fyanna2 offers more playstyles than just Flying Circus.
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