gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Sept 11, 2018 14:05:07 GMT
They will never give us a beast theme that has access to Hellmouths because there would be too many NPEs. People freaking hate that model. That's why they were excluded from OoA, because from a fluff perspective they make total sense.
Also, the issue I see with an all sorcery theme is that almost every model in it if also available in Children of the Dragon.
But ignoring these issues, and assuming there are no Hellmouths in it, I would give such a theme Hyper Regeneration for all war beasts. It feels blighty and would help us survive gun lines on the approach (a little)
And yes, free options should absolutely be lesser war beasts and solos.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Tharn CID
Sept 11, 2018 13:54:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Sept 11, 2018 13:54:46 GMT
Yeah, I just call it a bad theme (Ravens) Any theme with limited infantry AND a limited battlegroup had better be doing something amazing, and Ravens does nothing if the sort. Add to that the skornergy of free points for infantry when you need lots of beasts, and it’s just a cluster-firetruck of a theme. As for wolves... fix up doom reavers and I’ll love wolves. I don’t even play Khador, but I want to see doom reavers be scary again. Right now I don’t fear them at all. I play against Wolves a lot with my Skorne, they terrify me. 13" threat range when their offensive stats ends just about anything I put in range. All they need is a delivery mechanism, of which Khador has plenty. I've never played against them with my Legion though, so maybe that would lead me to a different opinion.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Tharn CID
Sept 11, 2018 3:47:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Sept 11, 2018 3:47:29 GMT
Heh, I actually think Wolves of Winter is a great theme, very well designed. So yeah, we may have to agree to disagree. But yeah, hyper-specialized isn't too me what makes a theme bad, it just needs to be the lesser used part of a good pairing. Which is why all the WTC lists right now are Primal Terrors as their primary and a secondary of Ravens (usually). But on the subject of cracking armor, best I can figure is that only certain casters are really meant to play it. Low fury Casters like Kallus2 and Lylyth1. Also, I'm convinced that Ravens is the perfect place for the Archangel. Yeah wolves of winter is a legitimately good theme, Khador players just need to pull their finger out and play it. I've constantly told the local player to use wolves for his bad matchups, wrote a few lists for him, now he's finally trying it and smashing everyone. Ravens is one of my favourite themes in the game for design but we don't have a caster that can fix its weaknesses and play its strengths at the same time- you do one or the other. It is well designed theme that doesn't really work, unlike Children which is poorly designed but we can make work. ... I hate how true this is.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Tharn CID
Sept 10, 2018 17:39:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Sept 10, 2018 17:39:02 GMT
I mostly agree with Gordo, with the exception of Ravens. Ravens is a hyper-specialised theme, allowing only light units that prey on light infantry and serpentine beasts. In order to crack armour, the theme needs to bring a number of serpentine heavies (already not efficient for the task...) which is at direct odds with the theme's free points coming from light infantry. In most factions Ravens would be hands-down the most pants-on-head stupid theme in the faction, but luckily we have CotD which is even more poorly designed as a base-line, with only Secret Masters and Wolves of Winter keeping them company in the dunce corner of themeland. Heh, I actually think Wolves of Winter is a great theme, very well designed. So yeah, we may have to agree to disagree. But yeah, hyper-specialized isn't too me what makes a theme bad, it just needs to be the lesser used part of a good pairing. Which is why all the WTC lists right now are Primal Terrors as their primary and a secondary of Ravens (usually). But on the subject of cracking armor, best I can figure is that only certain casters are really meant to play it. Low fury Casters like Kallus2 and Lylyth1. Also, I'm convinced that Ravens is the perfect place for the Archangel.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Sept 10, 2018 15:27:29 GMT
Throne vs Scythean - I've had (very) limited success using Scythean as anti-infantry. The argument could be made that it is more designed to answer medium bases who have tough and/or high def. I think during the CID (or here) someone already compared the ideal scenario of Scythean vs what the Throne can do and it came out about the same? The deciding factor (as already stated) was the Throne requires no resource management from the caster is more survivable. This was stated during the CID. There was lots of talk and encouragement to teak the Scythean to have a different role or do what it does better to justify the risk/reward. Lowering the points was something but I think it misses the mark of what the ask was. I really want the Storm Raptor to be better and any other model that is behind the power curve. This should help PP balance the game overall - and (hopefully) eventually get some adjustments to Legion as well. But then again, JVM is a stud so maybe I just need to get better? I would like to use something other than K1 dude spam though. I actually see the biggest problems in Legion are not its ability to be competitive, but rather... Dunno what term better to use than "player satisfaction". Perhaps "faction identity" or something. It's best summed up by issues with our themes. Primal Terrors: clearly very strong, but not what a lot of Legion players wanted and very little variety when on the table, for the most part. At least, that's the complaints I hear. Oracles of Annihilation: You can certainly make competent lists with it, but both the theme benefits (apparition for a unit, free points for beasts) make little sense for "sorcerer infantry" theme. Also dropping the max freebie slots/points from 4/20 to 3/16 because that was "broken" and then giving out even more points/slots to other themes at the same time was a slap in the face. It really didn't need to happen. Children of the Dragon: the problems with this theme are too numerous to mention and have been discussed thoroughly. Ravens of War: This theme feels hyper specialized but I think it's actually pretty well designed. I think players feel frustrated with it because it is so specialized, making it difficult to run. I think it really shines as part of a pairing, but it would definitely be the part of the pairing you lean on. I think you can make good-ish lists with all these themes, but they are kinda limited, not intuitive, and sometimes just feel "inferior" when I compare them to themes from other factions. Everytime I look at making a Legion list, apart from a few very select lists, I always end up thinking "if I played this other faction, I could make this same list but much better." Some of that latter I think is a matter faction identity: what exactly is Legion's schtick? When I ask myself that question, I almost invariably think "well it's X, only this other faction has that but better". None of this stops top tier players from winning. But it does make the rest of us feel "well, crap. No matter what I pick, it's not what I was looking for. Either I'm broken-cookie-cutter, someone-else-does-it-better, hyper-specialized, or flat-out-poorly-designed." Which is how I came to the term "player satisfaction"
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Tharn CID
Sept 7, 2018 20:52:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Sept 7, 2018 20:52:14 GMT
Keeping the scope narrow and clear is how you get a project done. If they were trying to rebalance all of Legion in one go, it would take a lot longer than the piecemeal approach we're getting with CID. Agreed - scope creep kills projects (man, I know that all too well from work). PT turned out pretty fantastic - again, I haven't been able to purchase Chosen yet so I haven't really fielded it. Will PT be the bench mark of what other LOE themes should land around or was it more around selling key models? We will see. The throne ended up being awesome. PT is awesome [Anamag, Chosen, Golab, Gorag, BlightBringer]. Thag2 felt good after CID but seems like its still not enough for him. Abby1 is strong but our [base] infantry may be the short coming there? AA improved but without being cheaper/survivable, is still lacking. The CID (and any 'Live Update' structure) takes patience and constant tweaking and... trust. I was never sold on the Throne, actually. It just feels like "yet more infantry mulching", something that the Scythean was already quite capable of for basically the same price. It just felt like "more of the same" and did nothing to address the question of "why am I playing Legion over some other faction?" Primal Terrors answers that question quite nicely, but PT wasn't really out at the time.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Sept 7, 2018 20:47:49 GMT
I'd remove the willbreaker from the Winds list. Take a free artillery piece instead. I'd also change up the beast loadout. Find a way to get an Archidon and a Drake in there. Sprint is maxima importante and the magic spray is also good for clearing your lines and making sure enemies don't clump. I've had pretty good experience using Drakes to clear up models jamming my turtles. Their average damage is just enough to put a rage token on the turtle too
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Tharn CID
Sept 7, 2018 12:40:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Sept 7, 2018 12:40:10 GMT
I was heavily invested in Legion's CID. I point-blank asked about models that were NOT on the CID (namely outside of PT). I was instructed that only exceptional issues but anything that took away review/effort of PT would be frowned upon. Keeping the scope narrow and clear is how you get a project done. If they were trying to rebalance all of Legion in one go, it would take a lot longer than the piecemeal approach we're getting with CID. Right, but I would hardly call the Tharn CiD narrow. They are reviewing practically every heavy they have. And rightly so.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Sept 6, 2018 21:18:53 GMT
No one will listen to complaints from Legion players as long as Primal Terrors is tearing up the scene, no matter how little it has to do with Archangel, Nephilim, Nyss, etc. I've moved on. Someday I will get bored, spend the 200+$ on Chosen and relish its power. Until then... My god, I forgot how expensive PP cavalry can be, and this is coming from a guy who buys anime figures. I'm gonna enjoy my Nyss and Nephilim for the forseeable future. And to add more fire to the flames, how does everyone else feel about their beast buffs/discounts and Morvhana changes? So back during and immediately after our CiD, many of us complained how little "effort" was put into it. Many of us felt the models were uninspired, addressed little of our faction wide issues, and that the developers simply weren't invested. I remember reading it and being concerned with how little the devs communicated. Has anyone noticed that the devs seem far more invested in this CiD? Like I see them regularly responding to posts, multiple different devs posting, etc. Which is weird because there are fewer models being added than the Legion CiD (which itself felt small anyway). Am I imagining this? Is this just "Druids have greener grass"? The one that sticks in my mind was the crow unit, so bland that I don't even remember their name, just that they had finisher. IIRC no changes were made and I don't even think the devs mentioned them at all. This was probably partially the fault of the complaints regarding Rapid Healing on Chosen. From memory the CID was focused around buffing the Blightbringer, balancing Chosen, and getting Warmonger usable. I will concede we also got the small Archangel patch and hefty Carnivean chassis discount around this time. BTW how are the male Tharn now that they've universally gained that rule? Most of the Battle reports rate them green. Course they also think the Well is balanced, arguing on the premise that it's free solo mechanic is balanced because recursion mechanics exist in other factions... As if that had any bearing. That and the Storm Raptor are getting all the attention right now. I actually dig most of the changes they are making, but the arguments some posters give are so wildly deluded/intentionally disingenuous... It concerns me, but we shall see. I'll be happy to see Circle in the meta more regardless. Circle's faction identity is very close to Legion's, so if they get buffed a bunch and it sticks, there's a better chance that Legion will see similar buffs when and if they ever address their other themes.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Sept 6, 2018 20:50:55 GMT
So back during and immediately after our CiD, many of us complained how little "effort" was put into it. Many of us felt the models were uninspired, addressed little of our faction wide issues, and that the developers simply weren't invested. I remember reading it and being concerned with how little the devs communicated.
Has anyone noticed that the devs seem far more invested in this CiD? Like I see them regularly responding to posts, multiple different devs posting, etc. Which is weird because there are fewer models being added than the Legion CiD (which itself felt small anyway). Am I imagining this? Is this just "Druids have greener grass"?
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Sept 6, 2018 20:40:57 GMT
Very grumpy. It would be far and away the best thing to happen to the AA. Soles has specifically said that the raptor is to imitate the AA. Now, aside from reload, it's blatantly better. Better range, more powerful animus, a "don't hit me single wound models" mechanic in Plasma Nimbus, disruption, and now not only is Flying high a ranged defense it adds a tactician like ability that helps with positioning. I don't understand where the "it does no damage in melee" BS comes from as it has 1 less pow than the AA and it's the hardest hitting thing we have. And Circle has access to Primal... A majority of Circle players have proven to be some of the greediest, whiniest, voices I've ever seen. The most common jab that gets thrown at me is "Just because Legion got screwed doesn't mean Circle should". Yes the Storm raptor needed "some" help. Now it outclasses the design it was supposed to imitate. I can only hope that Flying high gets added to the AA in the Dynamic Update. No one will listen to complaints from Legion players as long as Primal Terrors is tearing up the scene, no matter how little it has to do with Archangel, Nephilim, Nyss, etc. I've moved on. Someday I will get bored, spend the 200+$ on Chosen and relish its power. Until then...
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Aug 30, 2018 23:01:12 GMT
I used to feel bad about the turtle, but every time I see the results of a new CiD, I feel better. It's sad... But I'm feeling the same way... But I don't have a turtle Lol, you KNOW I sympathize with you, but you DO have Primal Terrors + Anamag... Granted I don't want to play her either but at least the option is there.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Aug 30, 2018 13:08:56 GMT
I used to feel bad about the turtle, but every time I see the results of a new CiD, I feel better.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Aug 30, 2018 13:04:34 GMT
Good arguments, but to me it seems both 40k and WM/H are better games when played with bad lists against each other. Awkward mtg analogy; drafting is all kinds of fun and skill intensive sport, but part of the fun is the fact that usually your and your opponent's decks suck. If Hill Giants and Grizzly Bears are playable, there aren't many big broken cards and combos flying around. Totally agree. Bad lists can make for some incredibly fun games. I don't care about MtG when playing in Modern or Standard formats, but a draft... Heck yeah. Back in my college days, we pulled all of our worthless cards into one giant collection, divided by color. Then we randomly dealt out X cards per color into one giant pile and then drafted that. We called it crappy-card-shuffle. Super fun.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Aug 29, 2018 20:09:27 GMT
From the IKRPG Skorne Empire book, Immortals are usually just the entourage of actual ancestor heroes. They aren't heroes per se, usually just dudes that died near AGs and had their souls preserved. As such, 6 MAT, P+S13 non-weaponmasters is fine. The AGs however are the real deal, and really should be hitting harder. Increase the base POW is one way to do it, but less fitting fluff-wise. The problem I'm guessing is that if you tune them for higher output, then they clearly outshine combat lights. I personally am fine with that, considering their limited threat range. It's ok if they out shine combat lights: 1. They don't have their durability 2. They don't fuel casters fury 3. They don't come from the same siloh of points so they won't make combat light beasts obsolete (any more than they already are) 4. Combat lights like the Cyclops Savage kinda suck, it's not like people are taking them right now anyway 5. They are limited by the souls available to them and can't receive battlegroup buffs. ... These probably didn't need to be listed like this, since I'm betting your already agree, but I guess the idea that Ancestral Guardians must suck because combat-light war beasts suck triggered me. Why DO combat light war beasts suck so much? Like across the board, unless they have a utility animus, I NEVER see them unless the caster has Synergy. And even then, unless you have ridiculous fury management it kinda behooves you to take budget heavies instead. I feel like there should be at least a good Naaresh build using Cyclops Savages but... Sigh. A combat light should probably be good at jamming (they aren't) or armor cracking (nope) or infantry murder (strike three). It's a problem that followed me from Legion and it is kinda frustrating.
|
|