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Post by jonnyboy on Apr 25, 2017 23:01:51 GMT
My friend that I play against quite often is a Legion player and I'm finding out the hard way they have great assassinations. Almost all of their units are eyeless, flying/pathfinder. They ignore intervening models when drawing LOS for charges/shooting and ignore terrain. My friend plays a new caster almost every time, as he owns a good percentage of them, and every time they have some new hijinxs to get at my caster. Abyslonia with her entire army of flying, Fyanna with gallows, and the hellmouthhave brought the most pain.
I've started broadening my variety of casters and I've picked up Irusk 1. The hope is I can stay back far enough with him and sylys that I can be out of charge range and still support my army. Man-O-Wars also turned out to be of great use, they are hard to bring down and ignore hellmouths for the most part.
What methods/units are good against legion? Their ability to ignore terrain and your army seems pretty key.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 1:47:45 GMT
Unless they bring a damage buff, remember that the probability of a Carnivean one rounding a Juggernaught is 1.5%.
Don't be afraid to run them to delay them if need be. They are fast, but don't hit as hard as you think sans damage buff.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 26, 2017 1:48:35 GMT
Legion are way toned down in Mk3. Make sure you are actually playing the rules correctly, because none of their ranged attacks ignore intervening models and the only LoS blocker they ignore are clouds. You don't get concealment or stealth against them, but they can't see through a forest or another model and cover works as normal.
While flying models can charge over your models, they don't ignore free strikes and still require somewhere they can fit their base. Unless they can get parry, any flying stuff that goes over your models should get hacked to bits by free strikes.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Apr 26, 2017 8:54:34 GMT
I also like turning the tables on them by playing Strakhov1. He can assassinate them just as easily as they assassinate us. Also Strakov does not care for their beasts range attacks as he is immune to fire.
I don't have any experience with Strak2 vs them but he still is immune to fire just like Strak1 so he should be good as well
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Post by smoothcriminal on Apr 26, 2017 9:32:12 GMT
Their go-to caster against us is Fyanna2. That means Fury and def skew feat on no-knockdown models with 12" threat. Unless you can buff to hit you're in big trouble. The other big one is Lylyth 3 with her super long range assassination.
I recommend WG theme with Butcher or Vlad since it outthreats their melee beasts, hits them well and protects against assassination.
Fang theme also should work well. You have a lot of bodies to hide the caster behind and countercharging high mat weaponmasters will work very well against melee beasts even if they charge you first. If you take Z1, I1 or Strakhov 2 you'll be able to protect your mass of infantry from sprays quite well. It'll be weak to acid throwers but I don't think Legion plays them that much currently.
Jack spam lists are generally a bad idea against them, they will have trouble with def and threat ranges.
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Post by jonnyboy on Apr 26, 2017 11:09:33 GMT
It seems I might have been to cautious with my jacks, as it's true he has yet to one round any of my jacks with just a carnivean. I'll also have to make sure we're doing the right things for eyeless and flying. They've been the death of me
My current list has 2 devastators, which hopefully will be even harder for him to one round. Kayazy eliminators are the other big change I'm hoping to utilize. My friend always brings spell martyrs (forget the name) 1 or 2 shepards, a forsaken, and a succubus. Eliminators I hope will be great at taking these out, being able to charge through models will be a huge threat. I haven't been bringing any speed increases, so now will irusk and andrei the juggies will be way more dangerous.
I guess positioning will be key, having my jacks lined up as to get as many free strikes as possible when the assassination comes.
Strakhov seems to have some pretty crazy threat range, feat/overrun/superiority. He might be joining the ranks if Irusk doesnt prove to be enough.
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Post by auraco on Apr 26, 2017 12:41:34 GMT
I've been doing well with Strakhov1 into legion so far, legion doesn't like the big threat range Strakhov gives to his army, they also don't like the fire immunity. Also legion is squishy enough that a damage buff (pretty much what is lacking in Strakhov1's kit) is not necessary.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 27, 2017 2:02:23 GMT
I'm really surprised that flying beasts over your stuff is working. It only takes one crippled aspect to pretty much negate an assassination run with a beast...
Strakov is a good counter to legion shooting, since the beasts are pretty much all fire and corrosion damage. But their ranged stuff isn't very accurate. I don't really see it as much of a threat outside Lilith. Being able to kill their support models (Shepherds and Forsaken) is also still a good way to mess with their beasts.
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Post by jonnyboy on Apr 28, 2017 2:34:29 GMT
Combined with the Seraph he's gotten the angelius into perfect charges on my caster, avoiding my couple of warjacks infront of him :/ I got high hopes for irusk this weekend, but if that doesn't pan out I might implement strakhov (his theme isnt much to my liking though, as interesting a caster as he is).
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 10, 2017 9:02:03 GMT
OK, can we have a conversation please about this list - the Fyanna 2 Oracles list. Here are two recent winning variations. I think the standard package has 2 angleius, a Seraph, 3 Neraphs, a Naga Nightlurker and support, including 20 points of free but valuable models. She cranks damage up with Fury (and POW 17 armor piercing with no knockdown and flight is a thing), which solves Legion's biggest problem. All the beasts have overtake (yeah, dudespam...that), and their base speed cranks up to an effective SPD 9 with the Seraph so it all threats 13 or 14 inches. With gallows she can suck stuff in, kill it, and then sprint away.
Everything is DEF 14 or 15, and cranks up to 17 or 18 on feat turn. Oh, yeah and if you miss her stuff with an attack on feat turn it just dodges away. And it was DEF 17 or 18 with no knockdown (because the beasts are all serpentine), so our boosted Marauder thing isn't working...
Does the Vlad 2 rocketspam list actually work? The rockets match the threat, not "out threat", and if you clump your dudes up at all you're an overtake victim.
Adepticon Masters 2017 MK 3 March 26, 2017 1st: Jake VanMeter Legion of Everblight Fyanna 2 (Oracles of Annihilation)[Bunker] Fyanna 2 Angelius Angelius Seraph Neraph Neraph Neraph Naga Nightlurker Raek Sorceress & Hellion Sorceress & Hellion Forsaken Forsaken Shepherd Shepherd Spell Martyr
The Melee at Shiloh Masters MK 3 April 28, 2017 1st: Brent Simon Legion of Everblight Fyanna 2 [Fuel Cache](Oracles of Annihilation) Fyanna 2 Neraph Neraph Neraph Angelius Angelius Seraph Naga Nightlurker Nephilim Bloodseer Sorceress & Hellion Sorceress & Hellion Forsaken Forsaken Shepherd Shepherd Spell Martyr
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on May 10, 2017 9:18:31 GMT
I main Legion. Fyanna2 is definitely our most reliable drop into Khador at this time. I think if you guys are planning on trying to shoot that list down or planning on trying to trade expensive jacks vs the beasts you're approaching it the wrong way. Fyanna2 loves it when opponents have expensive heavies because of how easy it is to send in an Angelius, Armor Pierce for a ton of damage and then have a Neraph with Fury come in to finish the job and Sprint to safety. The Angel that initiates the trade will almost always have Admonition on it as well. So if you're trying to play clamjacks or expensive stuff like Grolars you're going to get abused hard.
Instead look to the more budget heavies in the faction. Marauders and Juggernauts are just as hard to kill as a Grolar and cost significantly fewer points. It's a lot less painful for you to lose a Marauder to the Angel + Neraph combo than a more expensive heavy. Your casters who crank up those jacks are really scary for us as well. Harkevich and especially Karchev can be nightmares for us to deal with especially if we fail to get the first turn and Khador gets to set the line of battle further up the table. Karchev in particular is brutal against Legion as he's nigh impossible to assassinate with our usual tools of Lylyth3 feat + boostable guns or Vayl2 arcing a bunch of spells on Feat turn. He's tough enough to survive an Armor Pierce from an Angelius and can easily shrug off attempts to nickle and dime him to death with the POW12 guns that fill that list. The high level Khador players in my area have taken to playing the following:
Karchev - Jaws of the Wolf - War Dog (free) - Juggernaut - 9x Marauders
2x Forge Seers (free) Widowmaker Marksman (free)
Min Mechanics
AD denial from the theme force can be pretty brutal as it forces stuff like Deathstalkers and Hex Hunters to deploy normally. The sheer number of cheap, high ARM, hard hitting warjacks is a total nightmare for us. You have enough jacks to absorb the alpha strike plus the follow up the turn after Fyanna Feats. Once her Feat is spent it's your time to shine as none of the pieces in Fyanna's list are expendable whereas you can afford to lose 3-4 Marauders and keep on trucking.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 10, 2017 10:39:29 GMT
I main Legion. Fyanna2 is definitely our most reliable drop into Khador at this time. I think if you guys are planning on trying to shoot that list down or planning on trying to trade expensive jacks vs the beasts you're approaching it the wrong way. Fyanna2 loves it when opponents have expensive heavies because of how easy it is to send in an Angelius, Armor Pierce for a ton of damage and then have a Neraph with Fury come in to finish the job and Sprint to safety. The Angel that initiates the trade will almost always have Admonition on it as well. So if you're trying to play clamjacks or expensive stuff like Grolars you're going to get abused hard. Instead look to the more budget heavies in the faction. Marauders and Juggernauts are just as hard to kill as a Grolar and cost significantly fewer points. It's a lot less painful for you to lose a Marauder to the Angel + Neraph combo than a more expensive heavy. Your casters who crank up those jacks are really scary for us as well. Harkevich and especially Karchev can be nightmares for us to deal with especially if we fail to get the first turn and Khador gets to set the line of battle further up the table. Karchev in particular is brutal against Legion as he's nigh impossible to assassinate with our usual tools of Lylyth3 feat + boostable guns or Vayl2 arcing a bunch of spells on Feat turn. He's tough enough to survive an Armor Pierce from an Angelius and can easily shrug off attempts to nickle and dime him to death with the POW12 guns that fill that list. The high level Khador players in my area have taken to playing the following: Karchev - Jaws of the Wolf - War Dog (free) - Juggernaut - 9x Marauders 2x Forge Seers (free) Widowmaker Marksman (free) Min Mechanics AD denial from the theme force can be pretty brutal as it forces stuff like Deathstalkers and Hex Hunters to deploy normally. The sheer number of cheap, high ARM, hard hitting warjacks is a total nightmare for us. You have enough jacks to absorb the alpha strike plus the follow up the turn after Fyanna Feats. Once her Feat is spent it's your time to shine as none of the pieces in Fyanna's list are expendable whereas you can afford to lose 3-4 Marauders and keep on trucking. Thanks for your post! You give me hope. So this is the Karchev list I'm currently playing. Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf I can't quite figure out what's my target prioritization against that scary Fyanna 2 list. If my opponent misplaces his spell martyr I I think I'd try to take that out with the Destroyer or Widowmakers. There's just sooo much fury management on the table, is it worth it to try to shut it down with the snipers and Destroyer? If feels like it's a lot to clear out. In terms of the beast package, there's so much redundancy I can't quite figure out what I need to remove first. I think I'm most concerned about those armor piercing POW 17 attacks, followed by slipstream (but by the time I can do something about *that*, my opponent probably doesn't need it). I use this vs. a crap ton of marauders because, well (a) I don't want to buy that many marauders, and (b) the damage output of the Juggernaut and pathfinder on the Kodiaks make a much more balanced list, I think. The single Destroyer, I've found, is key for solo removal. So, can I but you for more tactical advice?
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Post by jonnyboy on May 10, 2017 10:50:26 GMT
I've found man o wars are tough for my legion player to handle. Especially with a caster that hands them iron flesh. Arm 23, 8 boxes is no joke, definitely requires attention and you don't want to waste 2 or 3 war beasts to take them down.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on May 10, 2017 10:59:50 GMT
I main Legion. Fyanna2 is definitely our most reliable drop into Khador at this time. I think if you guys are planning on trying to shoot that list down or planning on trying to trade expensive jacks vs the beasts you're approaching it the wrong way. Fyanna2 loves it when opponents have expensive heavies because of how easy it is to send in an Angelius, Armor Pierce for a ton of damage and then have a Neraph with Fury come in to finish the job and Sprint to safety. The Angel that initiates the trade will almost always have Admonition on it as well. So if you're trying to play clamjacks or expensive stuff like Grolars you're going to get abused hard. Instead look to the more budget heavies in the faction. Marauders and Juggernauts are just as hard to kill as a Grolar and cost significantly fewer points. It's a lot less painful for you to lose a Marauder to the Angel + Neraph combo than a more expensive heavy. Your casters who crank up those jacks are really scary for us as well. Harkevich and especially Karchev can be nightmares for us to deal with especially if we fail to get the first turn and Khador gets to set the line of battle further up the table. Karchev in particular is brutal against Legion as he's nigh impossible to assassinate with our usual tools of Lylyth3 feat + boostable guns or Vayl2 arcing a bunch of spells on Feat turn. He's tough enough to survive an Armor Pierce from an Angelius and can easily shrug off attempts to nickle and dime him to death with the POW12 guns that fill that list. The high level Khador players in my area have taken to playing the following: Karchev - Jaws of the Wolf - War Dog (free) - Juggernaut - 9x Marauders 2x Forge Seers (free) Widowmaker Marksman (free) Min Mechanics AD denial from the theme force can be pretty brutal as it forces stuff like Deathstalkers and Hex Hunters to deploy normally. The sheer number of cheap, high ARM, hard hitting warjacks is a total nightmare for us. You have enough jacks to absorb the alpha strike plus the follow up the turn after Fyanna Feats. Once her Feat is spent it's your time to shine as none of the pieces in Fyanna's list are expendable whereas you can afford to lose 3-4 Marauders and keep on trucking. Thanks for your post! You give me hope. So this is the Karchev list I'm currently playing. Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf I can't quite figure out what's my target prioritization against that scary Fyanna 2 list. If my opponent misplaces his spell martyr I I think I'd try to take that out with the Destroyer or Widowmakers. There's just sooo much fury management on the table, is it worth it to try to shut it down with the snipers and Destroyer? If feels like it's a lot to clear out. In terms of the beast package, there's so much redundancy I can't quite figure out what I need to remove first. I think I'm most concerned about those armor piercing POW 17 attacks, followed by slipstream (but by the time I can do something about *that*, my opponent probably doesn't need it). I use this vs. a crap ton of marauders because, well (a) I don't want to buy that many marauders, and (b) the damage output of the Juggernaut and pathfinder on the Kodiaks make a much more balanced list, I think. The single Destroyer, I've found, is key for solo removal. So, can I but you for more tactical advice? Yeah dude, not a problem. So in terms of target priority I'd focus on the Angels first and foremost. They're the first piece of the two-part combo that is armor pierce + Neraph with Fury charge in, kill and Sprint. Once the Angels are down the Legion player can't reliably send in a Neraph and expect to kill and Sprint out anymore as four POW18's and a 16 aren't enough to bring down a Khador jack on average. The Seraph is less a priority for you than it is to other factions mainly because even if you deny us Slipstream we're still vastly faster than you (SPD7 vs 4). I get not wanting to buy nine Marauders. Personally I think Juggernauts are just as valid a choice. Kodiaks are less interesting because they cost more than either a Marauder or a Jugger, their clouds mean very little to us and our DEF is high enough that it's hard to benefit from Chain Attack Grab & Smash. The Destroyer is far and away less valuable in this particular match up because its RAT is low enough that you need boosted 10's to hit even before the Feat and we don't have any spell-based buffs for the Forge Seer to ignore. If possible consider trading in those Kodiaks and Destroyer for more Marauders and Juggernauts. Remember that Neraphs cost 12 points, you actually pay less for a Marauder which comes close to crippling an aspect every time it connects with an attack on a Neraph. Juggernauts are great too. Should they ever crit with their axe that spells doom for the beast that they connect with as it doesn't have the ARM or number of boxes to survive multiple POW19's.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 10, 2017 12:10:33 GMT
Good intel on the beast package.
I don't think I can drop the Kodiaks. Pathfinder + Road to War here is the key. Without pathfinder this list is really sad. Besides, if I boost the 2 initials I get a third attack for free and the POW 12 vent steam is still boostable.
He Destroyer is about providing a blocker bodyguard for Karchev while delivering arcing fire shots at pow 16 / pow 9 blasts against support staff until late game. With 2 forge seers I can boost the hit and a damage roll so can reliably kill any support piece each round or multiple if clustered. It might not be essential in this match (you tell me), but like the Kodiaks this list is my anchor drop so it's the only solution I have now for incorporeal crap outside of feat.
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