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Post by Azahul on May 28, 2020 14:36:03 GMT
IMO one cannot and should not fix thornfall's problems with a warlock. Most of it's warlocks would be fine if they actually got the support they needed to run. What thornfall needs above all else are solos with abilities like desperate pace or push to the limit and spell support like spell slave, arcane assist, or harmonious exaltation. It also desperately needs more magic attacks to deal with incorporeal models. Point costs and possibly even def and spd stats could be looked at too. I'd also like to see our pool of beasts become more diverse as well. In particular an arm focused heavy and a true offensive light for carver. I have a few quick thoughts on that. A) We don't have support solos and spell support on the line-up, we have a Warlock. I'm not going to avoid trying to solve the theme's problems with a Warlock because it's not the "right" model to fix the issues with. The only potential releases we have coming are for a brand new theme force, so let's work with what we have right now. B) Most infantry require both support solos and a support Warlock. The overwhelming majority of pig Warlocks would not run in Thornfall no matter how broken Brigands became. They're almost all battlegroup Warlocks. Take Carver, he's 100% Battlegroup focussed, what does he care? We finally have a Warlock who is unambiguously a warrior-model focussed Warlock, this is the guy who should be made to work in Thornfall. If we refuse to start fixing Thornfall until Thornfall is ready to be fixed all in one go then it will never get fixed. C) Beasts becoming more diverse doesn't do anything for Thornfall, that's just more WWFF stuff.
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Post by Azahul on May 28, 2020 14:39:53 GMT
I think you are a way better player than me with lots and lots of high value experience. But I don´t think that a warlock can fix the Farrow Theme. Any single ability that is not solely available to [Farrow Brigands] via rules text will also enhance the shooting capabilities of Nyss Hunters or other units/solos. When I was thinking about a buff for Brigands Mortality came to mind. But Mortality will strenghten any and all kind of shooting unit, not only the Brigands.
You´re right that Paymaster [Brigands] or some battle plan regarding to Farrow units would make him kind of a Farrow theme warlock, but I doubt that this alone will help the victim stats of Farrow Brigands or Slaughterhousers. I´ve ever only had two games with Farrow that went the right way. It was under Carver with 2x Brigands, 2x Slaughterhousers, Rorsh and Brine against (1) Khador, melee only list, and (2) Cygnar melee only list, both against inexperienced players. They didn´t see it coming and I could push to the limits. But against any experienced player Brigands have never been any good. I don´t know. When I look at Feora4 who has a clear game plan with powerful rules I wonder why this can´t be the case for Farrow infantry warlocks (not that I think Feora4 is an infantry caster but her rulesset is tight and seems to be pretty good. I chose her as an example because the rules were relesaed these days.) With Maelok, Rask, Arkadius and Jaga Jaga they already gave us strong warlocks, so why no strong Farrow infantry warlock? Are we meant to be a warbeast centric faction?
I wouldn't worry about buffs for Brigands also buffing Nyss. Mostly because Brigands are better than Nyss. 19 points for 10 POW 10s? They're ridiculous. It takes a five man CRA from Nyss to hit harder than one Brigand. But yeah, I was pointedly advocating for Paymaster [Farrow], that's an ability that can't be replicated on anything else.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on May 28, 2020 15:05:20 GMT
I eman if all else fails they can just invent a a ranged damage buff spell that only affects farrow.
They made one up for feora4 in order to glue her kit together, they can always do it again.
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on May 28, 2020 15:09:27 GMT
The carver thing was just me wishlisting because I'm tired of how few options we have for our battlegroup.
That's a fair point about working with what we have but thornfall will never be viable until a bunch of its problems can be fixed and I dont want to see it become a theme where only 1 caster can run it. Imo with support midas and helga 1 could run it well as an infantry and combine arms respectively so it's not all just bg casters.
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Post by trout on May 28, 2020 15:14:24 GMT
I read the first half of his card and was getting pumped. Got to the spell list and it fell flat. Speaking with Ghoulio and I now agree with his initial take, 3 out of his 5 spells are really weak. It may not matter anyway as has already been pointed out he seems like he just wants to cycle Storm Rager and Wind Rush somewhere.
I wonder if some of this stuff is being set up for the Dhunian Theme? It seems like Helga2 and Azazello are being built with future setups in mind.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on May 28, 2020 19:12:42 GMT
I read the first half of his card and was getting pumped. Got to the spell list and it fell flat. Speaking with Ghoulio and I now agree with his initial take, 3 out of his 5 spells are really weak. It may not matter anyway as has already been pointed out he seems like he just wants to cycle Storm Rager and Wind Rush somewhere. I wonder if some of this stuff is being set up for the Dhunian Theme? It seems like Helga2 and Azazello are being built with future setups in mind. On the discord it’s already been talked about that yes, parts of Azazello’s stuff are kinda balanced with trollbloods in mind. Like he doesn’t have more wb points because he just wait til you see him troll heavies. So there’s still a bit of unknown in what goes with him or where
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Post by Azahul on May 28, 2020 22:16:15 GMT
He... has zero Battlegroup support. Why would we need to just wait until we see him with Troll beasts? It's not hard to imagine.
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Post by mydnight on May 28, 2020 22:46:57 GMT
On the discord it’s already been talked about that yes, parts of Azazello’s stuff are kinda balanced with trollbloods in mind. Like he doesn’t have more wb points because he just wait til you see him troll heavies. So there’s still a bit of unknown in what goes with him or where That's even worse for people playing Thornfall -- having to compete not only with WWfF but with trolls!
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Post by MacGuffin on May 28, 2020 23:08:33 GMT
Would it help if he got Desperate Pace, Rockbottom's Paymaster, Solid Ground, and Killingsworth's "No I'm fine?"
I suppose you'd have to subtract a few things to balance all that, but it would make a nice piggy boat.
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Post by Azahul on May 28, 2020 23:29:06 GMT
I do find it odd that Hungerford keeps going back to the "Just wait until you see X with Troll heavies" phrase. Troll heavies aren't the interesting part. They're near identical to pig heavies, and at 14 points I'd usually take a War Hog over any of them for sheer cost efficiency. It's access to Lights and the Stone that has some real potential to bring up a few pig Warlocks. Hah, if you make him three support solos and a Warlock in one package, that would probably make Thornfall tick I would settle for just Paymaster, that's enough to make Thornfall an interesting option in my book and still leaves room for future support solos, but boy Desperate Pace (or any speed buff) is appealing now that you mention it. This guy is in the running for slowest army in the game. You're going to cop an alpha every single game. Zaal2 Immortals out-threats his lists, whether in Thornfall or WWFF. That, if nothing else, makes me wish he had some reason to take Brigands. They're some of the slowest shooting models in the game themselves, but at least they still let you do something if the opponent is 11" away.
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Post by custardboy on May 29, 2020 2:39:56 GMT
We have to ignore what Hungerford says. He's more often wrong than right.
'Brigands are some of the best infantry in the game' 'Commandos are criminally underrated' 'Helga2 dials the meat thresher and road hog to 11' 'People are sleeping on Midas' 'The battle boar is still an incredibly powerful light beast'
That's just off the top of my head. I know he's supposed to hype stuff up but by this stage we have to assume whatever he said is the opposite of the truth.
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Post by Azahul on May 29, 2020 3:38:48 GMT
Ah well. There are some Lights that are potentially interesting. Night Troll for Attractor, Pyre/Slag to get his damage up without needing to do the Storm Rager set-up a turn in advance, anything with Earth's Blessing. Still nothing dramatic. Troll beasts on him are going to be as amazing on him as on any Troll Warlock with zero battlegroup support. I.e. ...meh.
Can anyone think what the balance concerns might be with him in the Dhunian theme? I'm just running through all the units in Trolls that he could potentially support. There's not a single Storm Rager target anywhere, so that's a wash which is... a little rough for his only consistently good spell. Henchmen has to be a Farrow unit, so that'll almost always be a Valkyrie unit. As for Troll units, without any shooting support I can't see much that he'd like. Yeah, Champions are the glaring, obvious exception, but is that it?
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Post by gobber on May 29, 2020 3:49:54 GMT
I'm just hoping that the dhunian theme brings with it a new support solo or two. If thornfall is going to get magical support solos they almost have to be either dhunian casters or bone grinders. Squeal company would be a natural reason to make some sort of dhunian shrine or dhunian priestess caster attachment, and there's not really enough dhunian stuff out there yet to really make the theme fulfill the god & guns descriptor otherwise...
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Post by custardboy on May 29, 2020 3:57:01 GMT
Yeah I really can't see a place for Storm Rager on trolls that could in any way compete with an Archon. That'll be part of the feedback I guess.
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Post by Azahul on May 29, 2020 3:57:15 GMT
If I remember right, the original announcement suggested one (1) new Minion, presumably a solo though I guess an attachment like the Battle Priest is possible, and like five or six Troll models.
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