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Post by danfromchicago on Apr 6, 2020 4:17:51 GMT
Hoping is nice, but based on the other spoilers we've had (i.e. Thrullgs killing Primal Archons on Azazello's Feat turn) there's almost certainly a Strength component of the Feat, and based on others (i.e. Hungerford's assertion that Azazello has multiple ways of buffing Defence) the other stat is almost certainly Def. Makes him similar to Damiano too, who has a Strength/Armour Feat. On the plus side, hopefully he'll have one more spell that adds to Defence (Sure Foot being a reasonable guess) based on the "multiple ways of buffing Defence" and assuming Wind Rush isn't the only other one, so I guess his gameplan is to have a screening unit keep the enemy at bay until it's time to Feat? Even ground, please
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Post by Azahul on Apr 6, 2020 4:47:33 GMT
I'm expecting Sure Foot because he was originally pitched as a Sorscha/Damiano hybrid and he has already been spoiled as having Wind Rush, but I wouldn't say no if he had Even Ground instead.
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Post by gobber on May 27, 2020 17:20:34 GMT
Oh wow azazello seems much better than I expected
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Post by zwergenkrieger on May 27, 2020 18:36:30 GMT
Ok, I´m not overly impressed. On a glance he seems to bring a lot of rules we ever wanted, especially infantry support. But on a second look one might notice that there is no infantry unit in all of Farrow that really gets notable buffs. DEF 12 to DEF 14 under feat. Does it really matter? ARM 18 instead of ARM 15? I don´t know.
Only Valkyries seem to be propper targets for his feat buffs, but 9 models overall?
Flashing Blade and Windrush and only a P+S 10 weapon?
A good target for Storm Rager in Farrow?
Distraction with a 15" threat and Phantasm seems to be a good toolbox, but once more: which unit profits?
Well, maybe someone else will enlighten the strenghts of this FARROW warlock.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on May 27, 2020 20:14:01 GMT
Ok, I´m not overly impressed. On a glance he seems to bring a lot of rules we ever wanted, especially infantry support. But on a second look one might notice that there is no infantry unit in all of Farrow that really gets notable buffs. DEF 12 to DEF 14 under feat. Does it really matter? ARM 18 instead of ARM 15? I don´t know. Only Valkyries seem to be propper targets for his feat buffs, but 9 models overall? Flashing Blade and Windrush and only a P+S 10 weapon? A good target for Storm Rager in Farrow? Distraction with a 15" threat and Phantasm seems to be a good toolbox, but once more: which unit profits? Well, maybe someone else will enlighten the strenghts of this FARROW warlock. You can put phantasm on a dracodile in WWFF, spam valkyries and archons, storm rager on wastelander maybe? There you have your farrow list with 100% less farrow.
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Post by gobber on May 27, 2020 23:11:33 GMT
Ok, I´m not overly impressed. On a glance he seems to bring a lot of rules we ever wanted, especially infantry support. But on a second look one might notice that there is no infantry unit in all of Farrow that really gets notable buffs. DEF 12 to DEF 14 under feat. Does it really matter? ARM 18 instead of ARM 15? I don´t know. Only Valkyries seem to be propper targets for his feat buffs, but 9 models overall? Flashing Blade and Windrush and only a P+S 10 weapon? A good target for Storm Rager in Farrow? Distraction with a 15" threat and Phantasm seems to be a good toolbox, but once more: which unit profits? Well, maybe someone else will enlighten the strenghts of this FARROW warlock. Seems like you missed henchmen and en garde? En garde is pretty nice on its own for valks with their crit knockdown. Henchmen brigands definitely seems to be the main incentive to go thornfall though; getting potentially 22 rerolled attacks and 11 models to base def 14 or 16 under feat seems like the best use of that ability, and they work well as a phantasm target too. With shield guards and dhunians around that’s enough to be pretty annoying. With the long range distraction thrown in as well those are some super accurate pig irons. I really don’t see the pow10 weaponmaster weapon as a concern when he’s able to make that pow12 wm with storm rager and pow15 wmwith feat before any voids and hermits get involved. Elasticity from mire seems cute on those flashing blades as well. Brun and the wastelander stand out as good storm rager targets in thornfall.
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Post by custardboy on May 27, 2020 23:39:50 GMT
There's no such thing as a Thornfall caster, he just has a random rule that's nowhere near worth moving away from Archon spam. He seems to be way better than Helga1 at her Hail Mary assassination run (which isn't something to bank on), his feat is made for supersolos and cavalry, he has no threat extension and his only damage buff is his feat.
This is a draft though. Hopefully they'll take feedback to make him function a lot better. Is he another half-baked Hungerford model?
#1: The Feat needs to be a pulse, not an aura #2: The +3 arm could be +3 speed. Armour is meaningless on single wound infantry, and Strength is meaningless when you cant get there. +3 Damage rolls would also be a hell of a lot better than +3 Strength with our stuff too (lots of guns, point blank).
#3: If you want him to play Thornfall, just make it ALL Farrow get Henchmen. They're so weak that this wouldn't break anything. #4: Cut Flashing Blade for a spell that actually works with our stuff. Snipe? Solid Ground? Even Scything Touch or Hunter's Mark.
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Post by mydnight on May 27, 2020 23:41:54 GMT
Seems like you missed henchmen and en garde? En garde is pretty nice on its own for valks with their crit knockdown. Henchmen brigands definitely seems to be the main incentive to go thornfall though; getting potentially 22 rerolled attacks and 11 models to base def 14 or 16 under feat seems like the best use of that ability, and they work well as a phantasm target too. With shield guards and dhunians around that’s enough to be pretty annoying. With the long range distraction thrown in as well those are some super accurate pig irons. I really don’t see the pow10 weaponmaster weapon as a concern when he’s able to make that pow12 wm with storm rager and pow15 wmwith feat before any voids and hermits get involved. Elasticity from mire seems cute on those flashing blades as well. Brun and the wastelander stand out as good storm rager targets in thornfall. Poor Gudrun would probably like stormrager. I really wish he gave a speed buff though. Yet another case of a caster that would probably work better in WWfF than his own native theme.
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Post by Azahul on May 28, 2020 6:37:01 GMT
Yeah, I've been mulling over him all day. He's an Archon spam Warlock for sure. Primal Archons are the best Storm Rager targets we have (an Arm 24 Archon on Feat turn, Def 14 against melee attacks, with Riposte and auto-knockdown, gives Minions a model as obnoxious for its point slot for one turn as a Menite Archon is basically all the time ) thanks to their three attacks. It's hard to milk much more value out of that anywhere. And you need multi-wound warrior models to make both halves of the Feat useful, and you only get a critical mass in WWFF. Someone on the Discord suggested running him with Croak Hunters. For 3 points you get P+S 15 sometimes weapon masters with a P+S 13 quick shot on Feat turn. I think that clicks better than nearly anything in Thornfall. I would rate Brigands as Henchmen higher if he brought a ranged damage fixer. POW 14 sometimes is good, honestly pigs generally have great offensive stats, but it needs at least one +2 buff to begin threatening most targets. He honestly feels like he's cobbled together from bits and pieces of Helga, mostly Helga1. He got the Flashing Blade that was originally going on Helga2, though it also evokes Helga1's Cyclone option. He just straight up copied Distraction from Helga1, and even appears designed with the same gameplay loop around it as her (i.e. spend half your Fury to cast it and the rest to run away using a spell), except he's better at it thanks to Range Amplifier and won't need the run away spell as much. Doesn't change the fact that no one is getting shot to death by infantry units right now. Henchmen even feels like a passive Defender's Ward knock-off. And of course he has a much better Feat than Helga1, and trades Field Marshal Gang Fighter for it. Basically, as is, I'd rank him just a hair above Helga1, since he traded Helga's best aspect for a big upgrade to the Feat, but he's certainly not seeing action in Thornfall when all the stuff that actually works with his kit is in WWFF.
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Post by custardboy on May 28, 2020 7:25:34 GMT
I've had a test game with him (full Archons of course). It went fairly well, won on dice more than anything. Flashing blade, phantasm and distraction didn't come up. He just cycled storm rager around and feated, then eventually put storm rager on himself and bullies things. He has much of the game plan of Helga1, but is actually capable of doing it unlike her.
Personally, I don't like him. We have no lack of Archon spam casters and he's less interesting than them.
Another 6 years until the next chance at a Thornfall caster, huh?
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Post by Azahul on May 28, 2020 7:46:09 GMT
I've had a test game with him (full Archons of course). It went fairly well, won on dice more than anything. Flashing blade, phantasm and distraction didn't come up. He just cycled storm rager around and feated, then eventually put storm rager on himself and bullies things. He has much of the game plan of Helga1, but is actually capable of doing it unlike her. Personally, I don't like him. We have no lack of Archon spam casters and he's less interesting than them. Another 6 years until the next chance at a Thornfall caster, huh? Yeah, I keep staring his card and thinking of how Midas's utterly reactive game play is such a turn-off for me (reliant on Speed 5 models with no threat increase), and I can't see him being much fun. "I won on dice" is surely going to be the mantra for him, because any Warlock as heavily loaded into Def-based gameplay is going to lead to a fairly binary experience. And "I just cycled Storm Rager" is really all I could see him doing in the average game, so that's to be expected. I would really like to see them take even more cues from Damiano and give him Paymaster [Farrow]. Swap out Henchmen or Distraction if necessary, but if he could deliver Brigands *and* up their ranged gameplay so that they can consistently threaten targets with their guns, that could see him in Thornfall and he at least has a few more tools to make that interesting compared to Midas. It's worth noting, reporting games to Hungerford did appear to lead to Helga2 getting buffed up to the point where I consider her a perfectly solid, playable caster. Would definitely be worth doing it with this guy
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Post by zwergenkrieger on May 28, 2020 13:28:53 GMT
I really like the concept of Brigands, but they don´t shine on the battlefield. IMO if we reach for a Farrow warlock, and that means a warlorck we really like to run in Farrow theme as it is right now, that warlock has to make either Brigands and/or Slaughterhousers work.
But no matter what spell / ability I think about, it will always be better under WWFF which means we need a whole rework of Farrow, nothing less.
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Post by Azahul on May 28, 2020 13:41:38 GMT
I don't necessarily agree with that. Paymaster on his card makes me very seriously consider Farrow. It can't be used more effectively in WWFF, and his Henchmen buff does feel better on a 10 man unit than it does on a 3 man unit just for sheer board real estate (even if Def 13 multi wound models feel a lot better with other parts of his kit than Def 12 single wound ones). He's actually not too far from working in Thornfall.
If you think about it, there are things Thornfall can do that can't be replicated in WWFF. The most notable thing, like you said, are Brigands, so if you buff warrior model shooting then you've probably got a spot in Thornfall.
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on May 28, 2020 14:07:21 GMT
IMO one cannot and should not fix thornfall's problems with a warlock. Most of it's warlocks would be fine if they actually got the support they needed to run. What thornfall needs above all else are solos with abilities like desperate pace or push to the limit and spell support like spell slave, arcane assist, or harmonious exaltation. It also desperately needs more magic attacks to deal with incorporeal models. Point costs and possibly even def and spd stats could be looked at too. I'd also like to see our pool of beasts become more diverse as well. In particular an arm focused heavy and a true offensive light for carver.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on May 28, 2020 14:30:35 GMT
If you think about it, there are things Thornfall can do that can't be replicated in WWFF. The most notable thing, like you said, are Brigands, so if you buff warrior model shooting then you've probably got a spot in Thornfall. I think you are a way better player than me with lots and lots of high value experience. But I don´t think that a warlock can fix the Farrow Theme.
Any single ability that is not solely available to [Farrow Brigands] via rules text will also enhance the shooting capabilities of Nyss Hunters or other units/solos.
When I was thinking about a buff for Brigands Mortality came to mind. But Mortality will strenghten any and all kind of shooting unit, not only the Brigands.
You´re right that Paymaster [Brigands] or some battle plan regarding to Farrow units would make him kind of a Farrow theme warlock, but I doubt that this alone will help the victim stats of Farrow Brigands or Slaughterhousers. I´ve ever only had two games with Farrow that went the right way. It was under Carver with 2x Brigands, 2x Slaughterhousers, Rorsh and Brine against (1) Khador, melee only list, and (2) Cygnar melee only list, both against inexperienced players. They didn´t see it coming and I could push to the limits. But against any experienced player Brigands have never been any good.
I don´t know. When I look at Feora4 who has a clear game plan with powerful rules I wonder why this can´t be the case for Farrow infantry warlocks (not that I think Feora4 is an infantry caster but her rulesset is tight and seems to be pretty good. I chose her as an example because the rules were relesaed these days.)
With Maelok, Rask, Arkadius and Jaga Jaga they already gave us strong warlocks, so why no strong Farrow infantry warlock? Are we meant to be a warbeast centric faction?
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