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Post by Charistoph on Nov 20, 2018 16:14:59 GMT
In Mk 1 and Mk 2 they were of that Faction, but could be taken as Mercenaries. In Mk 3, they are Mercenaries that can be taken as units in that Faction. Their cards list them as Mercenary units/warcaster.
Cain3 is is listed in the Mercenary Gallery, not the Cygnar, why is Blaize and the Precursors listed in the Cygnar Gallery and not the Mercenaries. Boxes are already messed up, and this was done LONG before anyone is suggesting making Cephalyx their own thing.
Partisan rules changed to be uniform across models in mk3, so that we didn't have "Cygnar that can be merc" as well as "Merc that can be cygnar". Everything became "Merc or Minion that is 'main faction' when taken in 'main faction' list". That is just bookkeeping.
It is also a terrible proxy for changing models from one faction to another. Cygnar players who buy Blaize didn't get a model they can't use, it just can also be used in Mercs. That's a happy realization, not a cause for anger. If a Merc player buys Cephalyx post "new faction", they have purchased something with their faction symbols all over it that cannot be played in that faction. That way lies customer complaints and refunds.
Could partisan packing be more clear? Sure. Is it causing problems? Only very slight ones in that it is hurting their sales slightly for players who don't know that they can field them. This in no way compares to a faction switch. It's like comparing cars where the clock radio comes set to military time by default and cars that are actually jetskis.
Then you are missing the point of the conversation.
The difficulty being spoke of in converting Cephalyx to their own mini-faction is already represented in these partisan models, and that is simply that they haven't done any work to change them on the site or in their packaging to represent where they currently reside.
A person who is new to the game and playing Mercs and hears about Blaize, Kayazy, or Idrians will look for them in the Mercs section, but they aren't IN the Mercs section in the online Gallery and, unless the store's stacker is on the ball, they won't be in the Mercs section of the wall. They will be in the Cygnar, Khador, or Protectorate sections as appropriate. So what you are complaining about already exists, so it would not be new to a Cephalyx mini-faction.
Everything else is in the cards, both on the Warroom and the Database, and those would be updated as appropriate.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Nov 20, 2018 16:54:33 GMT
. Then you are missing the point of the conversation.
The difficulty being spoke of in converting Cephalyx to their own mini-faction is already represented in these partisan models, and that is simply that they haven't done any work to change them on the site or in their packaging to represent where they currently reside.
A person who is new to the game and playing Mercs and hears about Blaize, Kayazy, or Idrians will look for them in the Mercs section, but they aren't IN the Mercs section in the online Gallery and, unless the store's stacker is on the ball, they won't be in the Mercs section of the wall. They will be in the Cygnar, Khador, or Protectorate sections as appropriate. So what you are complaining about already exists, so it would not be new to a Cephalyx mini-faction.
Everything else is in the cards, both on the Warroom and the Database, and those would be updated as appropriate.
No I think you’re not the one getting it here... Xintas was trying to explain the following; If I’m a new player and I’m playing Cygnar and I hear about Cain 3 as a caster and I decide “hey I want to try him with my Cygnar” and I can’t find him because I’m completely new to the game and don’t think to check mercs, them I have spent 0 dollars on a model but can still enjoy the rest of Cygnar that is marked as Cygnar. Where as if I’m a new player and I see that an old blister of Cognifex Cyphon has the Merc insignia on it, and I play mercs so I’m interested in playing him as my two list pair, so I buy him, and some monstrosities (as indicated on his card that came with him) as well as some mind benders... and now I come to find out at my first tournament that I can’t use him or any of the things that I bought with him (the monstrosities and the drudges and the what not), I may be upset. Why? Because unlike the first situation where I spent 0 dollars on a model I couldn’t find, I have now spent hundreds of dollars on stuff that I cannot use as part of the faction it was advertised as being. So now instead of my sweet Shae and Cognifex pairing, I have two factions and no pairing for either. Xintas’s other point was that in order to prevent that from happening you would need to get rid of all current packaging for the Cephalyx that has Merc indications on it, pay stores to change or remove all their stock, run advertising announcing Cephalyx as its own faction, and so much more that it is just not worth it. Partisan models may be a tad confusing but when you buy them (reguardless of what faction you buy them for (as long as it’s either Merc or the faction to which they have partisan)) at least you can use the model. Making Cephalyx its own faction would mean you could not pair it with your mercs, and if you bought them due to the way they were packaged or their location in a store (the Merc section) you would be disappointed to find out you did not buy a pairing but another faction all together.
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 20, 2018 17:47:09 GMT
Honestly, how many people do you think build up a tournament pairing without learning about things like that? Still doesn't change the situation with the Partisans. Even considering the two current Merc Cephalyx could remain Cephalyx Partisans.
As it is, they might as well be a mini-faction in terms of play if you don't consider pairings.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 20, 2018 19:26:06 GMT
. Then you are missing the point of the conversation.
The difficulty being spoke of in converting Cephalyx to their own mini-faction is already represented in these partisan models, and that is simply that they haven't done any work to change them on the site or in their packaging to represent where they currently reside.
A person who is new to the game and playing Mercs and hears about Blaize, Kayazy, or Idrians will look for them in the Mercs section, but they aren't IN the Mercs section in the online Gallery and, unless the store's stacker is on the ball, they won't be in the Mercs section of the wall. They will be in the Cygnar, Khador, or Protectorate sections as appropriate. So what you are complaining about already exists, so it would not be new to a Cephalyx mini-faction.
Everything else is in the cards, both on the Warroom and the Database, and those would be updated as appropriate.
No I think you’re not the one getting it here... Xintas was trying to explain the following; If I’m a new player and I’m playing Cygnar and I hear about Cain 3 as a caster and I decide “hey I want to try him with my Cygnar” and I can’t find him because I’m completely new to the game and don’t think to check mercs, them I have spent 0 dollars on a model but can still enjoy the rest of Cygnar that is marked as Cygnar. Where as if I’m a new player and I see that an old blister of Cognifex Cyphon has the Merc insignia on it, and I play mercs so I’m interested in playing him as my two list pair, so I buy him, and some monstrosities (as indicated on his card that came with him) as well as some mind benders... and now I come to find out at my first tournament that I can’t use him or any of the things that I bought with him (the monstrosities and the drudges and the what not), I may be upset. Why? Because unlike the first situation where I spent 0 dollars on a model I couldn’t find, I have now spent hundreds of dollars on stuff that I cannot use as part of the faction it was advertised as being. So now instead of my sweet Shae and Cognifex pairing, I have two factions and no pairing for either. Xintas’s other point was that in order to prevent that from happening you would need to get rid of all current packaging for the Cephalyx that has Merc indications on it, pay stores to change or remove all their stock, run advertising announcing Cephalyx as its own faction, and so much more that it is just not worth it. Partisan models may be a tad confusing but when you buy them (reguardless of what faction you buy them for (as long as it’s either Merc or the faction to which they have partisan)) at least you can use the model. Making Cephalyx its own faction would mean you could not pair it with your mercs, and if you bought them due to the way they were packaged or their location in a store (the Merc section) you would be disappointed to find out you did not buy a pairing but another faction all together. Thanks, was beginning to feel like I was taking crazy pills.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Nov 20, 2018 19:36:04 GMT
Honestly, how many people do you think build up a tournament pairing without learning about things like that? Still doesn't change the situation with the Partisans. Even considering the two current Merc Cephalyx could remain Cephalyx Partisans.
As it is, they might as well be a mini-faction in terms of play if you don't consider pairings.
I figure about as many people who would be confused by the partisan models and who wouldn’t just ask the source that informed them of such models as to where they might be located or how to obtain them. And not really, I paired thexus with Ossrum for a while, and I found that they really fit in mercs. They add a dude spam and play unlike what is really do-able by the rest of mercs, and In turn are benefitted by mercs broad range. I mean by just saying they’re practically their own thing is almost like saying Llael is its own thing, or pirates, or Rhulic, heck why even have mercs as a faction?
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 20, 2018 19:52:15 GMT
Honestly, how many people do you think build up a tournament pairing without learning about things like that? Still doesn't change the situation with the Partisans. Even considering the two current Merc Cephalyx could remain Cephalyx Partisans.
As it is, they might as well be a mini-faction in terms of play if you don't consider pairings.
I figure about as many people who would be confused by the partisan models and who wouldn’t just ask the source that informed them of such models as to where they might be located or how to obtain them. And not really, I paired thexus with Ossrum for a while, and I found that they really fit in mercs. They add a dude spam and play unlike what is really do-able by the rest of mercs, and In turn are benefitted by mercs broad range. I mean by just saying they’re practically their own thing is almost like saying Llael is its own thing, or pirates, or Rhulic, heck why even have mercs as a faction? Two simple questions:
How many Cephalyx models can be taken outside of Operating Theater? Only the two Cryx Partisans which are old.
How many non-Cephalyx Mercenary models can be taken in Operating Theater without a Dominator in the unit? None.
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Post by elladan52 on Nov 20, 2018 19:56:23 GMT
I figure about as many people who would be confused by the partisan models and who wouldn’t just ask the source that informed them of such models as to where they might be located or how to obtain them. And not really, I paired thexus with Ossrum for a while, and I found that they really fit in mercs. They add a dude spam and play unlike what is really do-able by the rest of mercs, and In turn are benefitted by mercs broad range. I mean by just saying they’re practically their own thing is almost like saying Llael is its own thing, or pirates, or Rhulic, heck why even have mercs as a faction? Two simple questions:
How many Cephalyx models can be taken outside of Operating Theater? Only the two Cryx Partisans which are old.
How many non-Cephalyx Mercenary models can be taken in Operating Theater without a Dominator in the unit? None.
All factions are basically this now because of themes. It's not unique.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 20, 2018 21:43:30 GMT
Two simple questions:
How many Cephalyx models can be taken outside of Operating Theater? Only the two Cryx Partisans which are old.
How many non-Cephalyx Mercenary models can be taken in Operating Theater without a Dominator in the unit? None.
Hmmm, so riddle me this. What point does a dominator have in this fictional Cephalyx mini faction? Does it have to get a complete rework and become a glorified field officer? THERE'S A REASON IT EXISTS AS PART OF THE MERC FACTION.
Also, can you explain your obsession with partisans? Not sure what the point in saying that the Cephalyx models include Cryx partisans was, aside from further confusing your point.
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 20, 2018 22:40:46 GMT
Two simple questions:
How many Cephalyx models can be taken outside of Operating Theater? Only the two Cryx Partisans which are old.
How many non-Cephalyx Mercenary models can be taken in Operating Theater without a Dominator in the unit? None.
All factions are basically this now because of themes. It's not unique. Not true. One is not required to take a Theme unless you plan on fielding Cephalyx models except for the two Partisan units. The rest literally cannot be taken outside of the Operating Theater Theme. They'd have to get permission ignore their rule to be taken in an event forbidding Themes. Two simple questions:
How many Cephalyx models can be taken outside of Operating Theater? Only the two Cryx Partisans which are old.
How many non-Cephalyx Mercenary models can be taken in Operating Theater without a Dominator in the unit? None.
Hmmm, so riddle me this. What point does a dominator have in this fictional Cephalyx mini faction? Does it have to get a complete rework and become a glorified field officer? THERE'S A REASON IT EXISTS AS PART OF THE MERC FACTION.
Also, can you explain your obsession with partisans? Not sure what the point in saying that the Cephalyx models include Cryx partisans was, aside from further confusing your point.
Same as it does for other faction's unit attachments to make them Friendly or to be taken at all.
The two Cryx Partisan units are literally the only Cephalyx models which can be taken outside of the Operating Theater at ANY time without house rules.
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Post by cheesejack on Nov 20, 2018 22:43:38 GMT
the dominator becomes a ranking officer and gets an extra blurb on how you can pick any merc unit to attach it to
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 21, 2018 14:23:11 GMT
And we're finally to the point.
So in order for your view of the Dominator to make sense, this mini faction maintains access to all merc units and plays exactly like Operating theatre in all ways...but we repackage it at great cost and confusion to the existing base because...?
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 22, 2018 0:15:19 GMT
And we're finally to the point. So in order for your view of the Dominator to make sense, this mini faction maintains access to all merc units and plays exactly like Operating theatre in all ways...but we repackage it at great cost and confusion to the existing base because...? If only to make them Friendly wouldn't be that extreme a reaction, but this consideration is most important: To allow them to expand far beyond what they are now. While they are tied so completely to Mercs, any expansion from their current scheme will be as rare as we are seeing for Convergence. It's not like I didn't say this before, but I guess it has been forgotten by now.
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Post by anderfreak on Nov 27, 2018 18:16:15 GMT
PP is going to do what PP is going to do ultimately.
I think it's asinine to believe it would be a hardship for the community at large if they shuffle Cephalyx into its own faction, if for no other reason than to get the models better visibility on the store page. Being hidden in the mercs section isn't really a great way to advertise they exist. Packaging is unlikely to be an actual problem. You use war room or the card database to make a list, you see what you're able to take in a list at the same time, simple as that. Repackage the existing models for future runs.
The only valid hardship that exists is for people who bought them to pair with other non-cephalyx merc lists at tournaments, but I imagine any shuffling of their faction/merc status would have to come with a sizable expansion of their model range, meaning the 3 people who run cephalyx own half a mini-faction instead of a single merc list now.
None of this seems unreasonable.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Dec 6, 2018 15:42:17 GMT
And we're finally to the point. So in order for your view of the Dominator to make sense, this mini faction maintains access to all merc units and plays exactly like Operating theatre in all ways...but we repackage it at great cost and confusion to the existing base because...? If only to make them Friendly wouldn't be that extreme a reaction, but this consideration is most important: To allow them to expand far beyond what they are now. While they are tied so completely to Mercs, any expansion from their current scheme will be as rare as we are seeing for Convergence. It's not like I didn't say this before, but I guess it has been forgotten by now. Limited factions don't get expansions except occasional solos. They would be better off making a new limited faction and updating the cards for the existing cephalyx models to "New Limited Faction - Partisan".
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 6, 2018 17:06:54 GMT
If only to make them Friendly wouldn't be that extreme a reaction, but this consideration is most important: To allow them to expand far beyond what they are now. While they are tied so completely to Mercs, any expansion from their current scheme will be as rare as we are seeing for Convergence. It's not like I didn't say this before, but I guess it has been forgotten by now. Limited factions don't get expansions except occasional solos. They would be better off making a new limited faction and updating the cards for the existing cephalyx models to "New Limited Faction - Partisan". Mercs are so disparate that some have to get a specific focus to get anything new. Cephalyx are the lowest model selection out of the Merc groups and lower than any Limited Faction. We're more likely to see the Pirates and Rhuls seeing expansion before Cephalyx, which means that Convergance is just as likely to see CID in that same interval. If they were brought up to Limited Faction numbers, then they might as well be Limited Faction and let them go from there.
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