Post by magnopus on Apr 9, 2017 13:44:20 GMT
Greetings!
In an effort to improve my game knowledge and understand the faction better I decided I should probably post about some of the problem match-ups I just can't seem to find a real good solution to.
To start it off I understand that a lot of lists are easy enough to deal with once you specifically tech for them. My problem is that in a two list pairing system (Tournament Play) you often find yourself in list chicken situations or unfavorable match-ups in general.
I sat down with my opponent after each game and talked out what his list was weak against and if there was any play mistakes I made or if I dropped the wrong list. It was interesting to say the least.
So in order to begin the conversation I figure I should talk about the latest list pairing on my mind. I really like Butcher3/Harkevich as a pairing. It feels really strong into a lot of the meta right now. Of course there is a lot of discussion happening around legion of steel and Irusk2/Strakhov2/Zerkova1, but I am just not comfortable playing 30ish dudes into a lot of the meta right now. Especially when you consider the match-ups it has to cover.
So what would you drop into these list pairings? How would you play around it. Below you will find an overview of my experience with it. My initial problems with it and my possible solutions.
The first one was Lylyth3 in Oracles. The variant running 3 Angelius', Seraph, Bolt Thrower and Carnivean. It was paired with an Oracles Fyanna2 list with all the Neraphs and Angels.
Looking at it initially I thought I could just get ahead by accepting the alpha and killing 1-2 heavies and then camping 5-6 the whole game to take the assassination from Lylyth3 off the table. What actually happened was much more interesting. We played the recon scenario. I won the roll and decided to go first to stop him from a massive real estate grab (His entire army threats 16" charges, Functional speed 9 + slipstream is great). I think thats about when the plan went wrong. He ended up completely manipulating my army via 3 repulses, attractor, a throw and thunderbolt. Clearing the zone is pretty easy when you can be pretty much anywhere you want and move clumps of models 3" at a time.
After talking it through it's a hard match-up for both of my lists especially on the scenario since I am out threatened by such a long distance (16" charge threat is real great). Plus the assassination pressure is pretty intense. It's really easy to put 5-6 shots on any caster when you threat 23" on all your warbeasts guns.
I don't really have a good solution that can drop into both Lylyth3 and the Fyanna2 list. My gut instinct is to reach for Sorscha1. Her feat and Spell List solves the Def problem. I just don't know what the rest of the list would look like.
The next list I ran into a problem with was Haley2 in the Heavy Metal theme. It ran 3 Stormclads, a defender, firefly, Thorn, and a Charger. One Stormclad was on Jakes and the Charger was on Junior.
I dropped Harkevich into this (As it was my typical Cygnar Drop). I definitely didn't feel disadvantaged going into it. It was interesting how the list works though. Between TK, Temporal Accel, dominate and Energizer(on Jakes Stormclad). Haleys 'jacks threat pretty far in interesting ways. For those that don't know it's 20"-22" depending if its Jakes stormclad or not.
So in theory how the game works is: She alphas me, I lose two jacks, She feats, I walk up to contest and feat, She kills one Jack and then I have 4 jacks vs her 4 jacks. This is basically what happened. However because we were playing on a live scenario she just ended up getting super far ahead on scenario pressure via dominate and TK.
After discussing the game it was suggested that maybe Vlad1 would have been a better solution because 12 rocketeers can threaten the battlegroup reliably. I don't really disagree. I think Butcher3 may have been a viable drop as well. Since having 1-2 heavies + Butcher against 4 jacks is actually ok. Will have to try that match-up.
So the common problems I seem to be having are extreme threat ranges and pushes and place effects. So having played the Lylyth3 match-up against a few weaker players I still don't have a great solution. In split-zone scenarios it feels like an auto-lose. In single large zones it feels fine though thats usually when I see the Fyanna2 list....and thats a whole other problem.
So what is everyone's solutions to these match-ups? Is there some gameplay trick I'm not seeing?
In an effort to improve my game knowledge and understand the faction better I decided I should probably post about some of the problem match-ups I just can't seem to find a real good solution to.
To start it off I understand that a lot of lists are easy enough to deal with once you specifically tech for them. My problem is that in a two list pairing system (Tournament Play) you often find yourself in list chicken situations or unfavorable match-ups in general.
I sat down with my opponent after each game and talked out what his list was weak against and if there was any play mistakes I made or if I dropped the wrong list. It was interesting to say the least.
So in order to begin the conversation I figure I should talk about the latest list pairing on my mind. I really like Butcher3/Harkevich as a pairing. It feels really strong into a lot of the meta right now. Of course there is a lot of discussion happening around legion of steel and Irusk2/Strakhov2/Zerkova1, but I am just not comfortable playing 30ish dudes into a lot of the meta right now. Especially when you consider the match-ups it has to cover.
So what would you drop into these list pairings? How would you play around it. Below you will find an overview of my experience with it. My initial problems with it and my possible solutions.
The first one was Lylyth3 in Oracles. The variant running 3 Angelius', Seraph, Bolt Thrower and Carnivean. It was paired with an Oracles Fyanna2 list with all the Neraphs and Angels.
Looking at it initially I thought I could just get ahead by accepting the alpha and killing 1-2 heavies and then camping 5-6 the whole game to take the assassination from Lylyth3 off the table. What actually happened was much more interesting. We played the recon scenario. I won the roll and decided to go first to stop him from a massive real estate grab (His entire army threats 16" charges, Functional speed 9 + slipstream is great). I think thats about when the plan went wrong. He ended up completely manipulating my army via 3 repulses, attractor, a throw and thunderbolt. Clearing the zone is pretty easy when you can be pretty much anywhere you want and move clumps of models 3" at a time.
After talking it through it's a hard match-up for both of my lists especially on the scenario since I am out threatened by such a long distance (16" charge threat is real great). Plus the assassination pressure is pretty intense. It's really easy to put 5-6 shots on any caster when you threat 23" on all your warbeasts guns.
I don't really have a good solution that can drop into both Lylyth3 and the Fyanna2 list. My gut instinct is to reach for Sorscha1. Her feat and Spell List solves the Def problem. I just don't know what the rest of the list would look like.
The next list I ran into a problem with was Haley2 in the Heavy Metal theme. It ran 3 Stormclads, a defender, firefly, Thorn, and a Charger. One Stormclad was on Jakes and the Charger was on Junior.
I dropped Harkevich into this (As it was my typical Cygnar Drop). I definitely didn't feel disadvantaged going into it. It was interesting how the list works though. Between TK, Temporal Accel, dominate and Energizer(on Jakes Stormclad). Haleys 'jacks threat pretty far in interesting ways. For those that don't know it's 20"-22" depending if its Jakes stormclad or not.
So in theory how the game works is: She alphas me, I lose two jacks, She feats, I walk up to contest and feat, She kills one Jack and then I have 4 jacks vs her 4 jacks. This is basically what happened. However because we were playing on a live scenario she just ended up getting super far ahead on scenario pressure via dominate and TK.
After discussing the game it was suggested that maybe Vlad1 would have been a better solution because 12 rocketeers can threaten the battlegroup reliably. I don't really disagree. I think Butcher3 may have been a viable drop as well. Since having 1-2 heavies + Butcher against 4 jacks is actually ok. Will have to try that match-up.
So the common problems I seem to be having are extreme threat ranges and pushes and place effects. So having played the Lylyth3 match-up against a few weaker players I still don't have a great solution. In split-zone scenarios it feels like an auto-lose. In single large zones it feels fine though thats usually when I see the Fyanna2 list....and thats a whole other problem.
So what is everyone's solutions to these match-ups? Is there some gameplay trick I'm not seeing?