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Post by pvtjoker on Apr 22, 2018 3:36:32 GMT
Aegis, I hate to say it but I think you fell for it again.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Apr 22, 2018 5:42:56 GMT
I'm going to come in with some pretty damn bold statements here.
Number 1 - Snipe wasn't overpowered. The idea folks would lose models bottom of 1 or top of 1 is something that is just shunned in general not that its something hard for an opponent to stop. It was change more due to negative play experience then something being overpowered. Snipe on a stick also didn't turn Cygnar already long range weapons into sharpshooting monsters. At some point after turn 3, super long range becomes less and less useful. Snipe helped improve those short range multi-fired options like grenadier, Dynamo, charger, and Cyclone. Either way, Snipe on something like a hunter, defender, or even storm strider is heavily mitigated by anti shooting tech, particularly shield guard. I think folks who are in the camp of Snipe on a stick was too op first off wrong, but secondly overlooked anti shooting tech, and third really didn't play or test it at all and just simply complained about it.
With all that being said Number 2, while I didn't play test as thoroughly as I liked FFE is a HUGE buff to Caine0. The obvious with Siege benefiting from it is 1 take away. The other is hot swapping FFE between Adepts. POW 10 4D6 does hurt a lot of models in this game. Add Falk or Ayaina and its hurting high armored troops. Even if we simply overlook that, FFE does help tremendously with focus efficiency as stated in comments prior. And while it may be true that some focus heavy caster(s) like Haleys really don't need the extra help, at the same time; whats wrong with making them more efficient. The other thing that I wanted to test and think would be good buff for jack marshaling gun mages. Think about it, use hunter for example. With Haley2 it can have 2 shots and with the Gun Mage Captain's jack marshal ability it can benefit from Falk without help of Arlan who can use evasive or give it a focus, has good enough range to do True Aim (which is +2 damage to range if model stands still), and add in any extra's like Ayania Kiss or Gorman's Rust along with Fire for Effect and you have potentially POW 10 to 12 armor piercing shot with the first shot having a 33% chance to be 4d6 and 2nd one being 3d6 if you opted to give it focus from arlan. That is 13-15 damage average for an armor 20 model for the 4d6 alone. Not many things are surviving that kind of firepower.
And before someone says "cygnar bias" or "meta bias" I've been playing trolls and teaching folks who would listen on how to get around boogeymen like Nemo3 or Haley3. I've also have 3 separate metas I play into which 1 includes WTC caliber players.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 22, 2018 6:42:42 GMT
Obviously you won't Spirit Door a Minuteman if you use Caine0 offensively (also because Caine0 needs to be in the "safe" spot for the Minuteman to land to). That said, you know as well as me that you can upkeep FFE and still be able to boost or camp, and that seem quite a bit of value. RAT 7 POW 10 actually sees through most units stats. You would kill Trenchers, Winter Guard, Banes, Stormblades and similar units without any problem at all, and if you are against very high DEF or ARM, you can boost and reliably kill even shield wall units in most cases (also remember that Magic Bullet uses the target as the source point of the attack, so if you shot one of the guys in the second line you can roll the Magic Bullet damage as backstrike, and so without Shield bonuses). Thunderbolt is a little bit risky, yes, but if it wins you a game (like putting a model out of contesting zone) the safety of Caine0 the turn after becomes irrilevant. Also, in HM the target will be at 13+2d3 from Caine0 after 2 thunderbolts and reposition, so it isn't even sure that Caine would be in a risky position after (depends on the situation). Using Force Hammer requires having a caster with that spell, and Hurricane is a freaking colossal. Having a source of pushes and KD in HM that isn't caster dependant and doesn't cost 39 points seems a good thing to me. If you spirit door a Minuteman you aren't giving it any focus still, unless you aren't upkeeping FFE. 3 focus is all of Caine's discretionary focus. You can upkeep and boost and camp, which seems of minimal value because taking a jack out of battlegroup isn't worth FFE in most cases. Wait, Rat 7 Pow 10 hits...Trenchers? What? If you boost you hit 50% of the time. Winter Guardsmen have low stats, sure, but Winter Guard Riflemen outthreat you and, using CRA, *will kill you*, especially with things like Signs and Portents. Banes are Arm 17 vs Guns with Tough, access to Stealth and don't care so much about casualties due to their minifeat. Stormblades are Arm 15 sometimes, but will often be Arm 18 if not 21. Importantly, all of these units (except the Trenchers, who Caine doesn't kill efficiently at all) are known as the least resilient models of their respective types and Caine *still* doesn't pair well against them and none of this is including defensive tech these models are taken with. Decel, Coven Feat, Veil of Mists, Windstorm, etc. That Shield Wall trick is available, but generally considering you are targetting second line models with your 10" range guns then Caine is a dead man. It would be better to Thunderbolt the Shield Wall units opportunistically, but most of those lists include defensive tech that Caine can't reasonably penetrate effectively. Access to Force Hammer and knockdown isn't hard in Cygnar. Stryker 1, Nemo 3, Siege 1 and Haley 3 are all well played casters who have trivial access to this tech. I'm saying that if your plan is that you want to knockdown models, there are far better pieces in the faction to allow that to happen.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 22, 2018 6:43:43 GMT
Aegis, I hate to say it but I think you fell for it again. Have you considered actually discussing like an adult? Its extremely rude to make such implications. If you don't have anything valuable to say then you should take your hands off your keyboard.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 22, 2018 8:16:31 GMT
Trenchers are DEF 13.
Since likely you would like to kill the ones that make the smoke, they can't be DIG IN, so they are DEF 15 at best within the smoke. That means that boosting the two hits roll (3 dices at 8, pretty high chance to hit) likely nets you 4 kills with magic bullet per round.
Since you'll kill the 4 closest ones, and after you reposition [3], Caine0 is now likely 15-16" from the closest model, so still coverable pretty effectively. If you don't feel safe, you can opt to only kill 2 and be at 19-20".
What are the units Caine0 can't kill boosting? with his stat, he can reliably hit up to DEF 16-17 and damage up to ARM 19-20. Only the most resilient units go over those values. He can kill 2 at least 2 models per turn, 4 if he gets closer. It seems to me as a very reasonable output. If there is a low def target near (either yours or of your opponent's, like a jack), you can even just double-ping it with magic bullets and kill two targets at 4 from him, even targets normally not in LOS or with absurd defense skews. It's basically the e-leap tactic we always used, but way better since you decide the target, so grounding tactics don't work. Actually, usually to hit a jack you don't even need to boost, so you even have to option to SD back if that is convenient.
In my games, I find uses even for other juniors hand cannons (RAT 5 and without bullets). I can't see how 2 shots, up to RNG 14, potentially with bullets and on a model with SPD 7 and RAT 7 shouldn't come very handy. All that considering that I continue to think that you undervalue FFE a lot (Just having 2 extra focus over limits is outstanding on some pieces, and having access to AoE shots makes it exponentially better. )
Anyway, its clear that your opinion is set in stone. You don't like Caine0 and nothing we would say would change your mind. Fine, you are not forced to use it. I would still enjoy it a lot, so that's not a problem.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 22, 2018 12:56:33 GMT
Trenchers are DEF 13. Since likely you would like to kill the ones that make the smoke, they can't be DIG IN, so they are DEF 15 at best within the smoke. That means that boosting the two hits roll (3 dices at 8, pretty high chance to hit) likely nets you 4 kills with magic bullet per round. Since you'll kill the 4 closest ones, and after you reposition [3], Caine0 is now likely 15-16" from the closest model, so still coverable pretty effectively. If you don't feel safe, you can opt to only kill 2 and be at 19-20". What are the units Caine0 can't kill boosting? with his stat, he can reliably hit up to DEF 16-17 and damage up to ARM 19-20. Only the most resilient units go over those values. He can kill 2 at least 2 models per turn, 4 if he gets closer. It seems to me as a very reasonable output. If there is a low def target near (either yours or of your opponent's, like a jack), you can even just double-ping it with magic bullets and kill two targets at 4 from him, even targets normally not in LOS or with absurd defense skews. It's basically the e-leap tactic we always used, but way better since you decide the target, so grounding tactics don't work. Actually, usually to hit a jack you don't even need to boost, so you even have to option to SD back if that is convenient. In my games, I find uses even for other juniors hand cannons (RAT 5 and without bullets). I can't see how 2 shots, up to RNG 14, potentially with bullets and on a model with SPD 7 and RAT 7 shouldn't come very handy. All that considering that I continue to think that you undervalue FFE a lot (Just having 2 extra focus over limits is outstanding on some pieces, and having access to AoE shots makes it exponentially better. ) Anyway, its clear that your opinion is set in stone. You don't like Caine0 and nothing we would say would change your mind. Fine, you are not forced to use it. I would still enjoy it a lot, so that's not a problem. Trenchers are very rarely Def 13, they are more usually 15-19. My opinion is not set in stone, I have yet to be shown any credible evidence and my own experience doesn't show Caine0 to be interesting or useful outside of some niche cases. Accusing my opinion as being set in stone while ignoring your own obstinacy is pretty hypocritical.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 22, 2018 13:44:53 GMT
The point is, I see many good points and many reason for putting Caine0 in a list.
I have pointed out them many times. You too don't bring any "evidence" that Caine0 is useless. You just dismiss all of them, sometimes just ignoring what I wrote, sometimes bringing opinable arguments.
Since you dismiss every possible use that we wrote, it's clear that you have already an opinion on it, and you are not going to change ideas.
It's useless to run in circles stating the same things everytime. I find MANY possible use for Caine, you see just one (Siege1).
Fine, we have different opinions on that. I'll play Caine0 in many list, you will play it only with Siege. That's how it is and continuing to argument is clearly useless at this point.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 22, 2018 13:51:09 GMT
The point is, I see many good points and many reason for putting Caine0 in a list. I have pointed out them many times. You too don't bring any "evidence" that Caine0 is useless. You just dismiss all of them, sometimes just ignoring what I wrote, sometimes bringing opinable arguments. Since you dismiss every possible use that we wrote, it's clear that you have already an opinion on it, and you are not going to change ideas. It's useless to run in circles stating the same things everytime. I find MANY possible use for Caine, you see just one (Siege1). Fine, we have different opinions on that. I'll play Caine0 in many list, you will play it only with Siege. That's how it is and continuing to argument is clearly useless at this point. You have made points, I don't see them as good ones. You accuse me of ignoring things while Ignoring the opposite (thinking that Trenchers will be Def 13 is pretty much ignoring the obvious). You are attempting to prove that Caine0 has uses, I find the uses you put up to be overly niche and not worth the investment. I dismiss every possible use you've written (which isn't true, I accept that It has its uses with Siege 1) because those uses, again, seem overly niche and not worth the investment. This isn't an argument, its a discussion. You are attempting to prove to me that Caine0 has multiple uses within proportion to his cost and investment. I am finding those uses to not be sufficient to the cost and investment. If someone finds tech that makes Caine0 anymore than the dull garbage that he seems to be, I'll gladly agree.
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Post by pvtjoker on Apr 22, 2018 13:55:37 GMT
Aegis, I hate to say it but I think you fell for it again. Have you considered actually discussing like an adult? Its extremely rude to make such implications. If you don't have anything valuable to say then you should take your hands off your keyboard. Perhaps, but that has never been particularly helpful in the past. That is also why no one thought I was implying that Aegis fell for PP trying overhype a crap model. This situation is not new.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 22, 2018 14:11:15 GMT
The point is, I see many good points and many reason for putting Caine0 in a list. I have pointed out them many times. You too don't bring any "evidence" that Caine0 is useless. You just dismiss all of them, sometimes just ignoring what I wrote, sometimes bringing opinable arguments. Since you dismiss every possible use that we wrote, it's clear that you have already an opinion on it, and you are not going to change ideas. It's useless to run in circles stating the same things everytime. I find MANY possible use for Caine, you see just one (Siege1). Fine, we have different opinions on that. I'll play Caine0 in many list, you will play it only with Siege. That's how it is and continuing to argument is clearly useless at this point. You have made points, I don't see them as good ones. You accuse me of ignoring things while Ignoring the opposite (thinking that Trenchers will be Def 13 is pretty much ignoring the obvious). You are attempting to prove that Caine0 has uses, I find the uses you put up to be overly niche and not worth the investment. I dismiss every possible use you've written (which isn't true, I accept that It has its uses with Siege 1) because those uses, again, seem overly niche and not worth the investment. This isn't an argument, its a discussion. You are attempting to prove to me that Caine0 has multiple uses within proportion to his cost and investment. I am finding those uses to not be sufficient to the cost and investment. If someone finds tech that makes Caine0 anymore than the dull garbage that he seems to be, I'll gladly agree. That is exactly what I'm trying to say. You read only what you want. I never said that I expext them to be DEF 13. In my post, I actually said that I expect them to be DEF 15 (while doing a cloud wall), but you stopped at the first sentence since that was what was easy to for you to counter. Caine can hit DEF 15, that is the usual DEF you see trenchers at, without even boosting. If there is something obvious is that you wont have to shot at DEF 19 trenchers, since that can happen only under Haley3, and I never seen an Haley 3 that doesn't use the cloudwall, so her trenchers (o at least the front ones) will not be dug in. Anyway, since he CAN actually boost, any DEF under 17 is hittable by him reliably, so against an unit with 17 or less DEF, he usually can kill 4 models per turn. Since rarely units have both very high DEF and very high ARM, the same applies for most ARM based units, where he can kill without problems models under ARM 20, and if they are reaching high ARM with shield wall (often is the case), you can use the magic bullet trick to ignore the second model shield wall. That is all without even considering to use nodes to "spark" magic bullets, another argument you totally ignored since it wasn't as easily counterable as "Trenchers are not DEF 13". This whole discussion happens like this for every of the multiple points I (and others) have pointed out. This is not a constructive discussion, is just polemic. You want to prove your opinion and dismiss other points taking just the ones you can counter better and ignoring all others. That said, again, I have found multiple good uses of Caine0. I have tried to point them at you. You still consider him trash. Fine, don't play Caine0, I will. That's how it is and continuing to discuss won't change any of our opinions.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Apr 23, 2018 0:05:28 GMT
So wait... His Rat 7 isn't good? But his ability to knock things down with Thunderbolt *also* isn't good because we don't need to knock things down to hit them "since we're doggamn Cygnar"?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 23, 2018 1:38:36 GMT
You have made points, I don't see them as good ones. You accuse me of ignoring things while Ignoring the opposite (thinking that Trenchers will be Def 13 is pretty much ignoring the obvious). You are attempting to prove that Caine0 has uses, I find the uses you put up to be overly niche and not worth the investment. I dismiss every possible use you've written (which isn't true, I accept that It has its uses with Siege 1) because those uses, again, seem overly niche and not worth the investment. This isn't an argument, its a discussion. You are attempting to prove to me that Caine0 has multiple uses within proportion to his cost and investment. I am finding those uses to not be sufficient to the cost and investment. If someone finds tech that makes Caine0 anymore than the dull garbage that he seems to be, I'll gladly agree. That is exactly what I'm trying to say. You read only what you want. I never said that I expext them to be DEF 13. In my post, I actually said that I expect them to be DEF 15 (while doing a cloud wall), but you stopped at the first sentence since that was what was easy to for you to counter. Caine can hit DEF 15, that is the usual DEF you see trenchers at, without even boosting. If there is something obvious is that you wont have to shot at DEF 19 trenchers, since that can happen only under Haley3, and I never seen an Haley 3 that doesn't use the cloudwall, so her trenchers (o at least the front ones) will not be dug in. Anyway, since he CAN actually boost, any DEF under 17 is hittable by him reliably, so against an unit with 17 or less DEF, he usually can kill 4 models per turn. Since rarely units have both very high DEF and very high ARM, the same applies for most ARM based units, where he can kill without problems models under ARM 20, and if they are reaching high ARM with shield wall (often is the case), you can use the magic bullet trick to ignore the second model shield wall. That is all without even considering to use nodes to "spark" magic bullets, another argument you totally ignored since it wasn't as easily counterable as "Trenchers are not DEF 13". This whole discussion happens like this for every of the multiple points I (and others) have pointed out. This is not a constructive discussion, is just polemic. You want to prove your opinion and dismiss other points taking just the ones you can counter better and ignoring all others. That said, again, I have found multiple good uses of Caine0. I have tried to point them at you. You still consider him trash. Fine, don't play Caine0, I will. That's how it is and continuing to discuss won't change any of our opinions. I ignored the obviously wrong things that you said because I didn't think it was worth interrogating. If you think that trenchers spend most of their time sitting in clouds rather than behind them or dug in then you haven't played gravediggers. If you are spark noding with Caine you mays well use a better model with electroleap. If Caine0 is boosting then he isn't escaping so he is probably dead next turn. If you want to discuss, you should use realistic scenarios that you would likely see on the table rather than unrealistic scenarios that prop up your bad argument.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 23, 2018 7:59:33 GMT
Yeah... I give up. I gain nothing from convincing you that Caine0 has many good possible uses, and while you ignore half of what I write because it's "obviously wrong", it seems to me that most people agree with me, so it seems "obvious" that noone here can play or understands the game but you.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 23, 2018 9:43:04 GMT
This game is not 40k and you cannot just generally divide everything in "plain bad" and "plain good". Even tough Cygnar tries hardest to do so
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 23, 2018 9:48:56 GMT
That is exactly what I'm trying to say. You read only what you want. I never said that I expext them to be DEF 13. In my post, I actually said that I expect them to be DEF 15 (while doing a cloud wall), but you stopped at the first sentence since that was what was easy to for you to counter. Caine can hit DEF 15, that is the usual DEF you see trenchers at, without even boosting. If there is something obvious is that you wont have to shot at DEF 19 trenchers, since that can happen only under Haley3, and I never seen an Haley 3 that doesn't use the cloudwall, so her trenchers (o at least the front ones) will not be dug in. Anyway, since he CAN actually boost, any DEF under 17 is hittable by him reliably, so against an unit with 17 or less DEF, he usually can kill 4 models per turn. Since rarely units have both very high DEF and very high ARM, the same applies for most ARM based units, where he can kill without problems models under ARM 20, and if they are reaching high ARM with shield wall (often is the case), you can use the magic bullet trick to ignore the second model shield wall. That is all without even considering to use nodes to "spark" magic bullets, another argument you totally ignored since it wasn't as easily counterable as "Trenchers are not DEF 13". This whole discussion happens like this for every of the multiple points I (and others) have pointed out. This is not a constructive discussion, is just polemic. You want to prove your opinion and dismiss other points taking just the ones you can counter better and ignoring all others. That said, again, I have found multiple good uses of Caine0. I have tried to point them at you. You still consider him trash. Fine, don't play Caine0, I will. That's how it is and continuing to discuss won't change any of our opinions. I ignored the obviously wrong things that you said because I didn't think it was worth interrogating. If you think that trenchers spend most of their time sitting in clouds rather than behind them or dug in then you haven't played gravediggers. If you are spark noding with Caine you mays well use a better model with electroleap. If Caine0 is boosting then he isn't escaping so he is probably dead next turn. If you want to discuss, you should use realistic scenarios that you would likely see on the table rather than unrealistic scenarios that prop up your bad argument. "If Caine0 is boosting then he isn't escaping so he is probably dead next turn." this is super wrong. 14-17 inches from the nemy, boosting wither to hit or damage (units are normally either high DEF or high ARM, not both), while upkeeping FFE and camping 1 is pretty safe. Your bias is incredibly huge.
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