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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 18, 2018 14:27:30 GMT
octaviusmaximus If I gave you Carte Blanche to design Caine0 from scratch, how would you go about making him powerful and interesting? For me the idea of multiple Trick Shots and a FFE Ground Pounder in a Siege 1 Heavy Metal list is exciting enough, but then maybe I need to get out more!
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 18, 2018 16:42:47 GMT
... I don't trust the assessment of players... not trying to start a fight. I have no interest in caine or cygnar or w/e. This is a very concerning "perspective" to have... This reads as "I'm right. Everyone else that plays this game is wrong" Can I assume you don't mean that?
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Post by falkman on Apr 18, 2018 17:09:33 GMT
Can I assume you don't mean that? No he totally means that.
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 18, 2018 17:10:58 GMT
octaviusmaximus If I gave you Carte Blanche to design Caine0 from scratch, how would you go about making him powerful and interesting? For me the idea of multiple Trick Shots and a FFE Ground Pounder in a Siege 1 Heavy Metal list is exciting enough, but then maybe I need to get out more! I play Legion with Protectorate on the side, so I don't really have a beef in this, but I too want to see Caine0 Ver. octaviusmaximus. From the outside looking in, being a junior with Spirit Door is already pretty interesting before his Rune Shots and the ability to take Ace are included.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 18, 2018 17:13:53 GMT
Caine himself only buffs hit and damage with FFE. He doesn't open up any new options, he makes Siege 1 slightly more efficient, he makes Haley 2's Hurricane a little more efficient. These are not things that change factions. Actually, I feel Caine (with the possibility to bring Ace in every list) brings a lot of new options: 1) ShadowFire Option in Heavy Metal (A thing we couldn't have before, and a thing that many of our shoting casters will enjoy). 2) ThunderBolt option in Haeavy Metal (another thing that before was un-accessible to the theme and that has many uses, both for scenario and LoS clearing). 3) Magic Bullets in every list, and in particular in Sons of Tempest. Magic Bullets are premiere anti-support options, a thing that SoT lacked before, and in general something that will come very handy after the E-Leap nerf. 4) Magic Bullet on a 2 shot piece, potentially abbined to another Magic Bullet on Ace, brings quite a lot of infantry clearing, a thing that could be interesting in HM. 5) The possibility to do some Yo-Yo tactics with Spirit Door, like sending a Minuteman to jump into the enemy and then teleport back 18", or to commit Thunderhead or a melee jack and then teleport it back 11". 6) (And only 6): FFE, that allows for some strong combos with Thunderhead, Avenger and Hurricane, or to improve the accuracy and the damage of the gun mage models (B13 and GMCA would enjoy it in particular), or to give two pseudo-focus to marshalled jacks. To me, it seems a quite long list of new options for a solo. I can think of very few cases of a solo able to bring this much more options to the table just by itself...
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Post by Aegis on Apr 18, 2018 17:17:11 GMT
octaviusmaximus If I gave you Carte Blanche to design Caine0 from scratch, how would you go about making him powerful and interesting? For me the idea of multiple Trick Shots and a FFE Ground Pounder in a Siege 1 Heavy Metal list is exciting enough, but then maybe I need to get out more! I play Legion with Protectorate on the side, so I don't really have a beef in this, but I too want to see Caine0 Ver. octaviusmaximus. From the outside looking in, being a junior with Spirit Door is already pretty interesting before his Rune Shots and the ability to take Ace are included. I can pretty much immagine how Octavius sees as a balanced version of Caine0: - Pseudo-Snipe spell that works only on warriors models. - Arcane Savant to combine two shots - Reposition [3] To me, it would seem extremely OP, but we have different thresholds on what it's balanced, I have already seen that when we discussed about Stormlances.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 18, 2018 17:27:16 GMT
Caine himself only buffs hit and damage with FFE. He doesn't open up any new options, he makes Siege 1 slightly more efficient, he makes Haley 2's Hurricane a little more efficient. These are not things that change factions. Actually, I feel Caine (with the possibility to bring Ace in every list) brings a lot of new options: 1) ShadowFire Option in Heavy Metal (A thing we couldn't have before, and a thing that many of our shoting casters will enjoy). 2) ThunderBolt option in Haeavy Metal (another thing that before was un-accessible to the theme and that has many uses, both for scenario and LoS clearing). 3) Magic Bullets in every list, and in particular in Sons of Tempest. Magic Bullets are premiere anti-support options, a thing that SoT lacked before, and in general something that will come very handy after the E-Leap nerf. 4) Magic Bullet on a 2 shot piece, potentially abbined to another Magic Bullet on Ace, brings quite a lot of infantry clearing, a thing that could be interesting in HM. 5) The possibility to do some Yo-Yo tactics with Spirit Door, like sending a Minuteman to jump into the enemy and then teleport back 18", or to commit Thunderhead or a melee jack and then teleport it back 11". 6) (And only 6): FFE, that allows for some strong combos with Thunderhead, Avenger and Hurricane, or to improve the accuracy and the damage of the gun mage models (B13 and GMCA would enjoy it in particular), or to give two pseudo-focus to marshalled jacks. To me, it seems a quite long list of new options for a solo. I can think of very few cases of a solo able to bring this much more options to the table just by itself... Your facts and reasonable analysis have no power here! Mk2 Haley 2 was fine as well btw!
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 18, 2018 17:36:52 GMT
Actually, I feel Caine (with the possibility to bring Ace in every list) brings a lot of new options: 1) ShadowFire Option in Heavy Metal (A thing we couldn't have before, and a thing that many of our shoting casters will enjoy). 2) ThunderBolt option in Haeavy Metal (another thing that before was un-accessible to the theme and that has many uses, both for scenario and LoS clearing). 3) Magic Bullets in every list, and in particular in Sons of Tempest. Magic Bullets are premiere anti-support options, a thing that SoT lacked before, and in general something that will come very handy after the E-Leap nerf. 4) Magic Bullet on a 2 shot piece, potentially abbined to another Magic Bullet on Ace, brings quite a lot of infantry clearing, a thing that could be interesting in HM. 5) The possibility to do some Yo-Yo tactics with Spirit Door, like sending a Minuteman to jump into the enemy and then teleport back 18", or to commit Thunderhead or a melee jack and then teleport it back 11". 6) (And only 6): FFE, that allows for some strong combos with Thunderhead, Avenger and Hurricane, or to improve the accuracy and the damage of the gun mage models (B13 and GMCA would enjoy it in particular), or to give two pseudo-focus to marshalled jacks. To me, it seems a quite long list of new options for a solo. I can think of very few cases of a solo able to bring this much more options to the table just by itself... Your facts and reasonable analysis have no power here! Mk2 Haley 2 was fine as well btw! In the context of all of the other broken crap of MKII ... yes ... yes she was. In MKIII not so much.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 18, 2018 17:41:21 GMT
Well don't everyone go picking on another forum member for wanting an interesting or functional or slightly stronger than par model via design intention. The obtuseness is acute here. I'm new to this forum, but I can honestly say yawl are a weird bunch claiming future design space limitations yet miss the opportunity to fill that "space" with a worth wild design buff. It’s like inheriting wealth, yet never utilizing it and dying as an average joe. lol Those of you who, from what I can see, get off to handicapping cygnar, should have at least argued with CID to make Caine0 more of a super solo rather than FFE on a stick. But, maybe that would also limit our "design space" for all future super solos, so we should never get one… Definitely a weird and funny bunch. Welcome to the forums! Your point is an interesting one. The idea of ever expanding a vault for a fortune that may never come is a worrying one. I personally agree that I would love Caine0 to be a true *super solo* rather than the mediocre solo he currently is. Unfortunately I don't know what PP wants and I don't trust the assessment of players so I feel that Caine0 might be doomed to be DoA, or PP may put something silly on him and he will be strong, but possibly very silly. Frankly, with the number of arguments I've had with you about various Cygnar models needing to be nerfed (most of which were later nerfed) I don't trust your assessment specifically, much moreso than I don't trust the collective assessment of the community. Your Cygnar faction blinders are rather legendary.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 18, 2018 21:49:47 GMT
I trust the results of battle reports and I trust my own experiences, but I don't trust the unfounded hyperbole of players who allow their meta biases to affect their judgement of power too much.
The about of talk about how caine0 is going to make thunderhead powerful, about how good spirit door is, and how useful FFE is on Long Gunners is proof enough of that to me.
An interesting Caine0, well there are plenty of ways to go about it. There is the warriors only snipe version I mentioned before on the CiD forums when PP mentioned that snipe was unlikely to go. The goal was to make a piece that buffed less good pieces without buffing Cygnars top end pieces. This allows for Caine to be impactful in design by allowing more pieces to see the table without increasing Cygnars top end power.
Warriors only snipe is a method to do this. The spell I liked the most was +4" range and Hip Shooting to the model/unit which would have been excellent on pretty much every model and unit that the spell could be placed on. It would be interesting for Kara, Siege, Long Gunners and all kinds of Gun Mage Models who are pretty much all C's at best. It would also go great on Caine itself, so meaningful choices can be made in list design and on the table.
This was shot down and FFE was given. I don't like FFE in Cygnar. Cygnar's design is predicated on making more attacks rather than buffing the strength of fewer attacks and so often each attack is less impactful. FFE runs counter to this design and as such is relegated to being an efficiency buff to a number of top end pieces, storm striders, hurricane, etc.
Those pieces don't exactly need to be buffed and they aren't buffed in an interesting way, it's not granting them anything new.
The problem is that Caine0s ranged output isn't actually very strong by nature of his defensive tech being mediocre. Spirit Door is simply too expensive and too risky because it takes up all of his focus and disallows him from allocating focus or boosting his shots. This, to me, says that he can be impactful himself or he can be safe, but neither at the same time.
Spirit door is a cool ability idea, but it just costs too much for a 4 focus junior with an upkeep. I like the idea of a yoyoing Minuteman except minutemen are already mediocre pieces and a Minuteman with no focus allocation is quite terrible. On the table I found the ability to Spirit Door back to be far less useful than it seems in the dojo because Caines Jack often Is getting into zones and things meaning that teleporting to it is simply getting into more danger.
The problem here is that without an adequate defensive tech, caines utility shots are useless because he will never be able to use them without dying, or rather, the risk of dying will be so high as to not make the shots worth it. This is especially true since Caine dying depowers his Jack.
I suggested Arcane Savant so came could fire his pistols from 14", a much more safe distance, and still use utility. But this was shot down, no reason was given.
If I had total creative reign, I would give Caine Warriors only snipe and drop spirit door down in cost to 2 to begin with and allow the sons of the tempest theme benefit to apply to his upkeeps. This would make Caine a solid utility piece in heavy metal, allowing for some Long Gunner and maybe mercenary builds or just using himself as a thunderbolt bot.he would also be a very useful piece in Sons of the Tempest as buffing the range of Gun Mages means that the list can have a chance of functioning without being swept off the table.
I would apply these and then balance from there with testing.
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Post by redsololobo on Apr 18, 2018 22:02:38 GMT
Yes I'm new here. lol Well, I'm glad to see everyone wanted the best for Caine0, but that's not what we got. Oh well, here is hoping they make him cool looking at least. B) oncomingstorm: I've like made four posts here, now five. I must be nailing a home run every time with you mate. :b
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Post by mydnight on Apr 18, 2018 22:06:39 GMT
"But this was shot down, no reason was given."
No reason that would satisfy you at least. This is why the developers don't bother giving their reasons and I totally agree with their decision not to. Can PP always produce top of the curve models that will always find a place in competitive lists? Sure. Should they? No, because it leads to an arms race.
Note that I personally think that he needs either a tweak in spirit door or reposition, but I can totally understand if they don't do it.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 18, 2018 22:07:56 GMT
Yes I'm new here. lol Well, I'm glad to see everyone wanted the best for Caine0, but that's not what we got. Oh well, here is hoping they make him cool looking at least. B) oncomingstorm : I've like made four posts here, now five. I must be nailing a home run every time with you mate. :b I was not referring to you, I was referring to Octavius. Hence my quoting his post.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 18, 2018 22:13:02 GMT
"But this was shot down, no reason was given." No reason that would satisfy you at least. This is why the developers don't bother giving their reasons and I totally agree with their decision not to. Can PP always produce top of the curve models that will always find a place in competitive lists? Sure. Should they? No, because it leads to an arms race. Why do you consider being so aggressive to be OK in a public place? How do you know I would not accept their logic? What are you basing that on beyond some kind of silly effigy you have of me in your mind? They should always create models that are on the curve, sometimes they can go above, but they should never go below. Caine0 is currently below the balance curve.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 18, 2018 22:19:51 GMT
We all consider Arlan a great piece, when what it does for most games is giving one extra focus to a jack every turn...
FFE alone gives 2 "focus", even in the worst case scenario (when you are buffing a single-target shot). And after that, there is all the rest Caine0 does and all the new options it opens.
In my opinion, people despising Caine0 are either influenced by the drop in power perception from Snipe to FFE (From gamebreakingly OP to very good), or from the comparison to the other OP models being released (the other zeros).
They aren't really objectively evaluating Caine0 as a single solo/JR.
If Caine0 was released as it is now right away and alone, they would consider it a great model, but since they have seen his drop in power in CID, now they talk bad about it.
Arlan isn't the only comparison I could make... Jakes1 and the Trencher JR are both considered pretty good tools in our arsenal, and Caine0 is way better than both.
I'm also curious about the "meta biases" argument. Who isn't "meta biased"? Everyone of us plays in a meta. Even big metas are still metas. We are all biased by our personal experience on the table.
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